Kalman Peleg
Haifa, Isreal
Boat Name: BAR GAL
Model/Year: 1994
Hull No. 13937
Hailing Port: Haifa |
 04/02/2004 3:34 AM Pacific Time
Anybody knows where I can get the specs on correct shrouds tension?
In the C22 1987 owners manual I found on page 11: " A 50 pound push should deflect the upper shroud about 1" at shoulder height" I am using a spring scale for applying the force and it seems to me that 50 pounds is way too much for a 1" deflection.
Perhaps this is a misprint?
I also found the Northsail tuning guide. However, they specify the tension by an unspecified "gauge" which I do not have.
Thanks, for any help.
Kalman |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
04/02/2004 6:34 AM Pacific Time
A very good tuning quide is located on the Catalina 22 National Sailing Association Web site.
http://www.northsailsod.com/class/catalina22/catalina22_tuning.html |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
04/02/2004 4:34 PM Pacific Time
Kalman - I just contacted the C22 NSA Technical Editor and got an even better source of tuning information. National Champion Pete Harper has expanded on the North Guide with some ideas of his own. They can be found at the following address: http://www.main.org/catalina22/c22tuning.htm |
Kalman Peleg
Haifa, Isreal
Boat Name: BAR GAL
Model/Year: 1994
Hull No. 13937
Hailing Port: Haifa |
04/03/2004 12:47 AM Pacific Time
Hi Dick,
Thanks for the info. I do have the North Sails tuning guide but I do not have the Model A Loos tension gauge, which they recommend. There is no way for me to get such a gauge so I wanted to use a regular spring scales, such as used for weighing a laundry bag etc. Thereby I can easily measure the applied force and using a tape I can also measure the resulting deflection of the shroud.
This procedure is recommended in the C22 owners manual. The problem is that the specification of 50 pounds for 1" shroud deflection is way too much.
Does anybody know what are the correct values for this shroud tensioning method?
|
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
04/03/2004 5:56 AM Pacific Time
I don't think a tension meter qualifies as forbidden export equipment. Do you have a way of ordering from an online marine supplier like West Marine or Defender? Have you investigated how much the shipping charges would be? A tendion meter is really a handy tool to have on your boat.
Anybody out there have a big fish scale and could measure the force required to deflect their shrouds, say 1/2 inch away from the mast. at four feet off the deck? |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
04/03/2004 6:34 AM Pacific Time
Kalman - On a hunch, I called West Marine. They do have an international sales division and do ship overseas. Whether this includes Israel, I do not know. Their email address is [email protected]. The gauge you are looking for is: Rig Tension Guage - West Marine Model No. 179358. It sells for $US 47.49. |
Kalman Peleg
Haifa, Isreal
Boat Name: BAR GAL
Model/Year: 1994
Hull No. 13937
Hailing Port: Haifa |
04/03/2004 11:31 AM Pacific Time
Thanks for your help Dick.
Ordering a tension gauge and shipping it to Israel then clearing it with our customs etc. is going to be expensive and will take about 6-8 weeks. The method with sclaes seems to be much simpler. I hope that somebody out there knows the correct specification and will respond soon.
Kalman |
Philip L .KWASINSKI
Chicago Illinois
Boat Name: O Wa Diddy
Model/Year: 1981
Hull No. 10523
Hailing Port: Chicago |
04/22/2004 5:32 AM Pacific Time
Does anyone have an opinion or theory on what rear stay and fore stay tension should be? I currently have the rear at around 10 on a Loos PT-1 tension gauge, when rear stay adjuster is fully engaged it will go up to 35.
What do others do? Philip |
Kalman Peleg
Haifa, Isreal
Boat Name: BAR GAL
Model/Year: 1994
Hull No. 13937
Hailing Port: Haifa |
04/23/2004 8:52 AM Pacific Time
I have the same question.
I just got a PT1 tension gauge and adjusted the tension of the shrouds according to the North Sails Tuning guide which comes out to be 21 for the upper and 18 for the forward and aft lowers but there are no instructions for the tension of the back stay. I have a Harken jib furler which replaces the forestay.
Kalman |
Steve Morgan
Bayport , NY
Boat Name: no name yet
Model/Year: 1988 wing keel
Hull No. #14444
Hailing Port: Bayport NY |
04/23/2004 7:12 PM Pacific Time
You have to be careful when you use the Loos Gauges. Both models use different settings. I overtensioned my rig last year by using a professional gauge PT -1 but used a chart for Model A settings. Skip has a comparison chart on his website for both models, the link is below
Steve Morgan
#14444
http://www.slowflight.net/upgrades/stand-chart.html |
Kalman Peleg
Haifa, Isreal
Boat Name: BAR GAL
Model/Year: 1994
Hull No. 13937
Hailing Port: Haifa |
04/24/2004 9:57 AM Pacific Time
The North Sails tuning guide specifies the tension by the Model A Loos Gauge.
The PT1 gauge comes with a conversion table from model A to model PT1 so there is no problem there.
However, there is no specification for the tension of the back stay. Some boats have a tension device whereby the backstay can be adjusted on-the-go for achieving the desired mast rake. However, my boat does not hasve one so I would like to apply some midrange tension. If anybody has a clue how much this should be, plese let me know.
Kalman |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
04/25/2004 8:25 AM Pacific Time
Hi Kalman - Congratulations on obtaining a tension gage. I can't remember whether you have an adjustable backstay or not. Here are some words of caution however.
Putting tension into the stays (fore and back) put loads on the tack fitting on the bow. If you plan to tighten the back stay to prevent forestay sag (curve in the forestay caused by side loads of the jib, especially when beating) make sure the tack fitting is reinforced.. On Jagged Edge I attached a tang to the under side of the bolt pattern that holds the tack fitting to the bow. I attached another to the upper bolt on the bow eye. I then attached two short pieces of SS cable between them with a turnbuckle between. The assembly is tightened down to transfer the load on the tack fitting to the bow eye and the stem of the boat.
You should use a back stay adjuster to spread the load of the backstay tension to two points on the transom.
I determined the max load on the forestay by tensioning the backstay adjuster and measuring the tension on the forestay. At some point the load will no longer increase, because the mast will bend out of column and begin to actually shorten slightly. My number was 42 with a regular Loos gage (not the professional model)
Make sure the mast step is not compressing the cabin top. This is usually caused by the support under the arm rest on which the mast support post sits, coming loose. This leads to the arm rest crushing and the cabin top sagging.. Lastly, if the core under the mast has been compromised with rot, due to water leaks under the mast step, the cabin top will crush under the mast step.
One final note. If you do not have a back stay tensioner, DO NOT leave the boat with lots of tension in the stays. It will actually bend the boat over time. Another good reason for having a backstay adjuster.
I hate to rain on your parade of tensioning the stays, but these are things you need to know. |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22 '76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
04/26/2004 12:22 PM Pacific Time
For what it's worth, when re-stepping the mast we aligned the mast by adjusting the four lowers. Measuring from the gunnels to the spinnaker pole ring in it's upper most position. And the rake was measurered with a vise-grip pliers on the main halyard for weight, about six inches at the boom when the boat was on her lines in the water. Then came the awakening, when we put tension on the uppers the lowers saged, indicating the deck was compressing. The deck under the mast step was found to be solid. But under the arm rest the piece of wood to transfer the load to the keelson was out of position. I drilled a 4" hole with a hole saw on the aisle way side and cut a wedge of wood to fit loose, then wrapped it with epoxy soaked glass and forced it into the gap.
That solved the problem, just something else to look for.
Al Ge
#6448 (no name yet) alias Torch of Freedom #501, alias Torch II II, #11660. The II II was to be pronouced 22, my 35' boat was Torch, so this was to be Torch II, but since it was a 22, I thought I could take some literary license and use II II, every one called TuTu. |
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
04/26/2004 12:50 PM Pacific Time
After reading all the comments I am getting nervous. I just raised the mast of my rebuilt 22 and had a devil of a time as the forestay and backstay are so tight that it was darn near impossible for me to tighten enough to even get a cotter pin in place. I've wondered if I got the wrong turnbuckles. I have an older one piece backstay going off to the starboard side. I wonder if I should lower it immediately to get the tension off or if I can use the main halyard and connect it at the transom and release the backstay (the mast is raked back A LOT) and then add something on to allow the backstay to have more slack. I just replaced about everything including all rigging, mast step, mast halyard plate, and chainplates. I've written to C.D. but have not heard from them as yet. In the meantime I am open to suggestions. |
Michael Smalter
Webster, NY
Boat Name: Marrakesh
Model/Year: 1986
Hull No. 13645
Hailing Port: Rochester, NY |
04/26/2004 2:44 PM Pacific Time
The forward and aft lower shrouds should hold the mast up without the forestay or backstay attached. I'd suggest disconnecting the backstay, tightening up the forestay and adjusting the lowers to get the proper mast rake, and seeing how much longer the backstay needs to be. If CD doesn't come through with a solution, and the backstay is just a few inches short, you could use a shroud adjuster (page 915 of the 2004 Boat US catalog). The large version ($18) provides up to 7 inches additional length. |
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
04/26/2004 7:01 PM Pacific Time
Sounds like a good possibility and I appreciate the info for Boat US. I have not heard from CD as yet and hope they respond by tomorrow. They've always been helpful and I am sure will stand by their product. Weather permitting I'll take the tension off tomorrow. Glad to know I can safely release the back stay. I have a feeling it is going to really snap when I get the pressure off so will hook up the main sheet on the traveler and keep it snug for security. Don't want to get smacked by a flying stay. |
Kalman Peleg
Haifa, Isreal
Boat Name: BAR GAL
Model/Year: 1994
Hull No. 13937
Hailing Port: Haifa |
04/27/2004 1:46 AM Pacific Time
Hi Dick,
Thanks for the extended information.
I have a Harken furler for my Genoa so there is no forestay per say, but it does sag quite a bit when I am beating. Therefore, I think that my backstay is not sufficiently tight. I do not want to over-tighten it for the reasons you mentioned. It looks like the tack fitting was reinforced as part of the Harken furler installation.
My backstay is a regular 1/8" SS cable which splits into a V shape of two thicker cables that are attached to the transom. In between there is a turnbuckle for adjusting the tension in the 1/8" cable. Your figure of 42 tension by the Loose model A means 33% of breaking force of a 1/8" SS cable. This is way too much!!
Normally, one should not apply more that say 15%.
For racing, I know that it might be advantageous to have an adjustable backstay but I am not interested in racing. Since no one seems to know what the mean tension of the backstay should be I shall experiment myself to get the forestay not to sag too much while not exceeding 15%-18% of breaking force in the cable.
Kalman
|
Philip L .KWASINSKI
Chicago Illinois
Boat Name: O Wa Diddy
Model/Year: 1981
Hull No. 10523
Hailing Port: Chicago |
04/27/2004 4:41 AM Pacific Time
Hi I had the same question and the closiest thing I came to an answer the the North Sail Tuning guide. It adovocates 6-8 inches heads sail sag with the rear stay adjuster fully released, this sag is taken up as rear stay tension is added. Hope this helps, go to their site and check it out. Philip Chicago |
Frank Nin
Grass Valley, CA
Boat Name: Hola!
Model/Year: C-22, Wing, 2000
Hull No. 15464
Hailing Port: Grass Valley, CA |
04/27/2004 6:49 AM Pacific Time
any body here using 5/32" wire for their standing rigging instead of the standart 1/8"? |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
04/27/2004 8:50 AM Pacific Time
Hi Frank - My shrouds and stays are 1/8 inch but the turnbuckle on the forestay is oversize. After I broke the screw on my old one, I went with 5/16 screw and schackle pins instead of the 1/4 inch. |
Frank Nin
Grass Valley, CA
Boat Name: Hola!
Model/Year: C-22, Wing, 2000
Hull No. 15464
Hailing Port: Grass Valley, CA |
04/27/2004 1:47 PM Pacific Time
When you did this upgrade, did you replaced the standing rigging with 1/8“ wire at the time or did you keep the existing 1/8” and just replaced the shackle and turnbuckles. The reason I’m asking is that I wonder if “upgrading” to a larger wire size would “beef up” the standing rigging on the Catalina 22 or could it just mean that something else would fail like the deck area where the chain plates enter the deck. The Com-Pac 23 is similar in size as the Catalina 22, similar in number of stays except they use the 5/32” standing rigging. A lot of us use our Catalina 22’s in high wind areas. Maybe this could be a worthy upgrade next time we think of replacing the standing rigging. |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
04/27/2004 3:48 PM Pacific Time
I think 1/8 inch wire is plenty strong enough for the Catalian 22. I did replace the forestay because it had a few broken wires. Since the failure cost me the race and could have cost a mast, sails or crew injuries, I went ahead and replaced all the standing rigging. I got the wire from a local marine dealer. I got all the turnbuckles and fittings from West Marine. I used their rigging bench to build all the new shrouds and stays. I marked all the old ones and used them as templates for the new ones. With the help of a friend, it only took a couple of hours |
