Heidi Heidel
Fredericksburg, VA
Boat Name: Interim
Model/Year: 1973
Hull No. 2212
Hailing Port: Colonial Beach, VA |
 04/04/2004 7:16 AM Pacific Time
Hi everyone. I'm a newcomer. I just took possession of a 1978 Catalina 22 and one of the things I need to replace to make her ready for the water is the keel winch.
I've read the other threads but they don't address replacing the whole winch. This up-and-down keel stuff is all new to me since my last boat was a Cal 25 and had a fixed keel.
The winch is all rusted, and (forgive my lack of knowledge of the proper terminology) the wheel thing that has teeth is all rusted out beyond repair.
Boater friends say I need to replace the whole shabang. Any ideas or pointers as to where to get one of these, or do I have to go directly to Catlina? |
Michael Smalter
Webster, NY
Boat Name: Marrakesh
Model/Year: 1986
Hull No. 13645
Hailing Port: Rochester, NY |
04/04/2004 8:34 AM Pacific Time
Catalina Direct has the keel winch for $89 (Summer 2003 price). Item number D1188. They are great to deal with. If you haven't ordered their owner's handbook, do it today! |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
04/05/2004 6:13 AM Pacific Time
If the original winch has the small diameter hub, that is NOT the one you want. Does anyone know what the difference in price is between the one from CD ($89.30) and one from a Fulton retailer? |
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
04/05/2004 6:42 AM Pacific Time
My winch was not as bad as this one sounds. But it was very easy to disassemble, wire brush the surface rust off, prime and repaint. You can see the finished product at my site: www.leachs.com
I am a cheap SOB so I would try to find a new gear or buy a winch direct from Fulton or find somebody parting out a boat.
My 2 cents:
Robert |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22/'76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
04/05/2004 9:25 PM Pacific Time
Dick King, I noticed you don't think the small hub is the one someone would want, and I agree, #501 has such and it was 75 turns to get it up. Being cheap, I turned a spool, split it, and added it under the cable. It was a bit big but the result was that to lower the keel I could give it a good spin and it would go all the way down. Coming up was only 23 turns. For what it's worth. Al Ge |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
04/06/2004 5:59 AM Pacific Time
Al - Are you sure about the old turns? When I bough my previos boat, Elixir(6614), brand new from the factory, it only took about 40 turns. You must have has a really skinny spindle. The new winch is only 21 turns from full down to full up. |
Heidi Heidel
Fredericksburg, VA
Boat Name: Interim
Model/Year: 1973
Hull No. 2212
Hailing Port: Colonial Beach, VA |
04/07/2004 5:27 PM Pacific Time
thanks for all the input guys!
Ken - Thanks for the heads up. I've sent an email asking about the winch. I'm trying to go the most economic way possible, as I don't have a lot of funds to play with, but I don't want to skimp, either...as these things are pretty important. I'll check with CD and the manufacturer if the other doesn't come through.
If all goes well I hope to be in the water by June.... |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22/'76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
04/08/2004 7:32 AM Pacific Time
Well, Dick King, I might have miss remembered the exact number of turns, but it was a lot more than previous boat #11660, at 23. So when I had to take it out to re-glass the step which was cracked through, I just made the spool. The hands free spin down was something I had not expected, at first I worried it would not stay up, but it did. I don't know about new boat #6849?, I forgot what it is, it is in the shed with all the deck hardware off waiting for money and time to work on it. Haven't had it in the water, it had 40-50 gallons inside do to deck fitting leaks. I have a lot of work to do. |
Dick Reynolds
Lebanon, Oregon
Boat Name: Catnip
Model/Year: Swing Keel / 1974
Hull No. 4570
Hailing Port: Newport, Oregon |
04/08/2004 10:02 PM Pacific Time
Heidi. Just go to the Fulton web site given above to get their phone no., call them and ask for the parts desk. They just might sell (or give) you the part you need. Bill, the one I talked to was a real nice guy. |
Don
Mansfield, Texas
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
04/27/2004 1:55 PM Pacific Time
My keel winch works fine but the brake doesn't engage. I can turn the handel and the keel comes up with no problem. The only catch is if I let go of the handel the winch lets the keel go back down. I took the keel apart and it seems the main gear doesn't engage the small gear with the pal. I tightend every thing I could fine. Does the fiber washer between the gears wear out and can it be replaced? Would it be better to just buy a new one for my 98 Cat 22. Any advice will be appreciated.
DOK 15412 |
Dan
Napa, CA
Boat Name: XXXX
Model/Year: 1984
Hull No. CTYH2117M843
Hailing Port: Lake Tahoe |
09/28/2004 7:27 PM Pacific Time
My winch has worked fine until the other day after raising the keel, I was unable to lower it. For some reason the winch will not turn counter-clockwise. It's as if there is something I need to engage, however I have never needed to do anything in the past. Any Ideas? Dan |
Fred Apstein
Gabriola Is BC
Boat Name: Scruples
Model/Year: 1976
Hull No. 95
Hailing Port: Gabriola Is BC |
09/29/2004 8:00 AM Pacific Time
I bought a new winch from CD recently. The price was something like fifty bucks LESS than from Fulton, the manufacturer.
I did talk to the folks at Fulton about parts before I bought the new winch. They were very helpful and knowlegable.
My problem was the shaft where the handle connects is messed up where the PO used vice grips to keep the handle on when lowering the keel. The winch is pretty rusty and hard to turn.
I could have cleaned it up and welded something like a bolt and nut on the shaft, but I bought the new winch. It took about 15 minutes to take the old one out and put the new one in. |
Chip Ford
Marblehead, MA
Boat Name: Chip Ahoy
Model/Year: 1974-Swing Keel
Hull No. CTY032820374
Hailing Port: Marblehead, Mass. |
09/30/2004 1:21 AM Pacific Time
Last winter I removed my keel winch and did an overhaul of it. I had a split pipe welded to the spool to increase its diameter: it now takes 33 turns to completely raise or lower the keel. There's really not a lot that can go wrong with the mechanics; sounds like some of the problems cited above are likely due to simply a missing or disconnected spring that holds the ratchet gear.
For photos and more detailed explanation, see:
The Keel Winch Restoration
http://chipford.com/keel_winch.htm
Chip Ford --
Marblehead, Mass.
1974 C22 Swing Keel #3282 - "Chip Ahoy"
Chip Ahoy website: www.chipford.com
|
Artur Piotrowski
Burlington, Ct
Boat Name: Spirit
Model/Year: C22 1986
Hull No. 13485
Hailing Port: Bantam, Ct |
09/30/2004 6:09 AM Pacific Time
Just wondering, it takes 33 turns after you increased the diameter and it takes 25-27 turns on my boat. I believe the winch on my C22 hasn't been modified. Is the keel cable on your boat longer? Any comments? |
Chip Ford
Marblehead, MA
Boat Name: Chip Ahoy
Model/Year: 1974-Swing Keel
Hull No. CTY032820374
Hailing Port: Marblehead, Mass. |
10/01/2004 2:42 AM Pacific Time
The keel cable is new (this past spring) from Catalina Direct, along with the hose, turning ball and hose clamps, so I would expect it's of a standard length. The diameter of our winch hubs may differ though, as the pipe I had welded onto mine doesn't seem to have as large a diameter as some I've seen photos of that are apparently the new stock diameter.
Chip Ford --
Marblehead, Mass.
1974 C22 Swing Keel #3282 - "Chip Ahoy"
Chip Ahoy website: www.chipford.com
|
Linda Hoffecker
Lancaster, PA
Boat Name: t/c
Model/Year: '82 Cat 22
Hull No. t/c
Hailing Port: Havre de Grace, MD |
10/22/2004 9:24 AM Pacific Time
Hello!
I am reading all about this keel winch thing and have looked at the refurbishing of your winch, Chip, on your neat website. However, I am puzzled as to how to get the handle off the winch. I 'd like to remove the wooden panel covering the volcano and winch itself, and also probably replace the winch. I don't think I am up to refurbishing anything. I have two rubber like gaskets that I can remove and from there, I'm stuck.
Any help much appreciated!
Thanks! |
Joe McElroy
Snoqualmie, Washington
Boat Name: Teasel
Model/Year: 1979 Swing Keel
Hull No. 9014
Hailing Port: |
10/22/2004 10:10 AM Pacific Time
Linda,
If yours is like ours, the winch handle just screws off of the shaft by turning it counterclockwise. Ours comes loose continually when raising the winch (our drum is a little stiff). You might have to reach around the side of the cover panel and block the drum from turning with a screwdriver, or something.
Joe |
David J. Pierce
Sunset, Louisiana
Boat Name: Little Miracles
Model/Year: 1985
Hull No. 12822
Hailing Port: Cypermort Point, Louisiana |
10/25/2004 12:45 PM Pacific Time
If the wench handle has not been removed in a while, it may be necessaary to hold the wench drum while turning the wench handle counter-clockwise to free it from the shaft. |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22/'76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
10/26/2004 5:40 AM Pacific Time
Linda,
If the winch will raise and lower the keel there should be audible klicking on the way up, and to lower the handle has to un-screw to let the cluch slip to lower the keel. Most that I seen will continue to un-screw when the keel is completely down. The un-screwing is part of the function of the winch.
For whatit's worth,
Al Ge |
Don
Yorktown, VA
Boat Name: Skweedle
Model/Year: '75 Catalina 22 Swing Keel
Hull No. 4821
Hailing Port: Yorktown |
01/01/2005 7:38 PM Pacific Time
Speaking of that winch handle...
Has anybody modified it to accept an actual sheet/halyard winch handle? Sure would be convenient, and they lock in/out with the press of the thumb tab. |
Kim Mohanty
Setauket, NY
Boat Name: Take Five
Model/Year: C22/1972
Hull No. 1143
Hailing Port: Setauket Harbor, New York |
02/15/2005 8:20 AM Pacific Time
Ahoy fellow 22 owners. I recently purchased a 1973 C-22 #2344 and I am unable to lower the keel, when I turn the handle it just unscrews. I ordered a complete new system from CD. My question is how do I remove the old winch and cable? It is cranked up all the way and is very tight. I have been reviewing the other postings and have not seen this addressed. Thanks. |
Linda Hoffecker
Lancaster, PA
Boat Name: t/c
Model/Year: '82 Cat 22
Hull No. t/c
Hailing Port: Havre de Grace, MD |
02/15/2005 11:41 PM Pacific Time
I am very interested in this answer. I want to replace my keel cable and need to take off the winch, clean it. and make it like new..
Thanks! |
Linda Hoffecker
Lancaster, PA
Boat Name: t/c
Model/Year: '82 Cat 22
Hull No. t/c
Hailing Port: Havre de Grace, MD |
02/15/2005 11:51 PM Pacific Time
Al, David and Joe. Wow, I haven't checked into the site until recently and I thank you for your responses. Don't know why I didn't think of blocking the drum.....do it to take the lawn mower blade off all the time!!
thank you, again. Much appreciated!
Linda |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
02/16/2005 4:12 AM Pacific Time
Joel - Drop me a line to tell me what your phone no. is. I also live in Melbourne and have removed and replaced my keel winch several times. Maybe I can help you, depending on what the problem is. My email address is (phonetic) Romeo Tango Kilo Juliet Romeo at bellsouth.net. |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
02/18/2005 2:12 PM Pacific Time
Hey Joel - Are you out there somewhere in Melbourne, FL? I have given you my email address and tried to call all the Joel Taylors in the Melbourne phone book. No contact. I would like to try to help you, but I can't if you don't make some effort to contact me. |
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
04/03/2005 11:03 PM Pacific Time
This forum is really great. Thanks CD for having it and thank you to all the members out there that have given me great advice on various items
I just replaced the keel cable on my '82 Catalina 22 while it was on the trailer. When I cranked the new cable up on the winch, everything seemed to be working okay. But, when I let go of the winch handle, the clutch does not engage and the spool unwinds easily with a simple pull on the cable.
I'm pretty sure I put everything back the way it was. Well, pretty sure... Does there have to be tension or weight on the cable for the clutch to engage? When I put the boat in the water next week, will the keel stay in the up position until I lower it or will the keel stay with the trailer unless I hold it in the up position? It's always something...
Thanks for any suggestions. Happy sailing out there... |
Michael Smalter
Webster, NY
Boat Name: Marrakesh
Model/Year: 1986
Hull No. 13645
Hailing Port: Rochester, NY |
04/04/2005 3:50 PM Pacific Time
Gary, did you wind the cable in the correct direction? The keel winch handle should be turned clockwise to bring the cable up. Just a thought. Also, what parts did you remove from the winch to replace the cable? |
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
04/04/2005 10:16 PM Pacific Time
Hi Michael,
Not to doubt you, but are you sure you turn the winch handle clockwise to raise the keel? I'm pretty sure, not positive though, that I turn mine counter-clockwise to raise it and clockwise to get her wet. But, I could be wrong...
It appears that if the spool is turned clockwise to lower the keel, then the cable runs off the spool straight down into the volcano and over the aft side of the keel lowering ball.
If the spool has to be turned couterclockwise to lower the keel, meaning that the cable comes off from the starboard side of the winch spool, then the cable runs at an angle into the keel cable hose. Although this might be correct, it just appears wrong. But again, I could be wrong. If
that's the case, I wound the cable on the spool in the wrong direction. I can un-spool and re-spool it tomorow.
The only part I removed from and replaced back on the winch was the small plate that holds the tail of cable to the outside of the spool, about 6" up from the end. I didn't remove or take anything else apart. And... I have no extra parts sitting around. That's rare for me!
Maybe I should have looked closer at what I was doing when I removed the cable from the winch. It just looked so easy...
|
Lowell Richardson, Owner, Catalina Direct
Sacramento CA
Boat Name: Steamboat Willie
Model/Year: 1984
Hull No.
Hailing Port: Folsom Lake |
04/05/2005 1:41 AM Pacific Time
Just a note to correct some misconceptions in the above posts and to add some additional tips:
1) Although early keel winches were equipped with handles that were removable, they have not been made that way for years. The reason is, when you remove the handle, the clutch is completely disengaged. This allows the drum to rotate freely (which it especially does with the vibrations of trailering). When the drum unwinds on its own, the cable becomes loose. When you crank the keel up off the trailer in preparation for launch, the cable is left with loose loops of cable. After launch, when the keel is lowered, each time you come to a loose loop of cable, the keel free falls a few inches. When it is caught again by the winch, the dynamic load on the fiberglass bridgedeck (where the winch is bolted) is substantial. Over time this shock load will cause the fiberglass which supports the winch to fail. Either the plywood which supports the fiberglass will de-laminate or it will detach from the underside of the fiberglass or the fiberglass itself will crack. In any case it is a moderately difficult repair and the boat will never look the same again. Without an expensive boat yard repair it will for ever after be an obvious repair which may cause a potential buyer to avoid your boat.
If it were my boat and my keel winch handle was removable, I'd replace the winch for this reason alone. In addition, any winch with a removable handle also has a small diameter shaft which compromises a new keel cable the first time it is used on the winch. New winches have fixed handles and a much larger diameter drum to protect the cable.
2) Some manufacturers may be willing to sell to you direct. But they typically are selling to you at a higher price than you can buy from Catalina Direct in order to cover their cost of processing many small orders. They will rarely say no to a sale. But they are selling to you only at the highest suggested retail price. Consider, if you were in their shoes, would you rather sell a single shipment of 50 winches to Catalina Direct or 50 individual shipments of a single winch each to customers all over the country?
We don't charge you more, they charge us less. It is much less expensive for them to sell cases of winches to us, ship them 50 at a time to one address, bill with one invoice, know they will get paid on time because they have done business with us for decades, and not have to give a part of their profit to the bank in order to accept your visa card.
3) There are often subtile differences that you may not be aware of until it is too late. For example, the normal handle that comes with the stock winch that is the basis of a C-22 keel winch is too long to work on your C-22. It hits the step (or ice chest lid on 2nd generation boats) and therefore won't rotate through 360 degrees. The winch you buy from us has a specially modified handle that fits the installation properly.
4) The handle of every C-22 keel winch we sell is labeled with a special safety warning sticker. This may just prevent the well meaning but inexperienced crew you snagged off the dock for an afternoon sail from doing damage to the boat (or worse to himself) through improper use of the keel winch.
5) The handles on both the C-22 and the C-25 winches rotate clockwise to raise the keel. When rotating clockwise you will hear a distinct clicking sound, just like your trailer winch.
To lower the keel, rotate the handle counter-clockwise. You will not hear a click as there is a special clutch that gently disengages and allows the drum to rotate in concert with your motion. If you stop cranking, the drum stops rotating. This is a critical safety factor that prevents the kind of free wheeling motion possible with a trailer winch, the same free wheeling motion that might take off your hand at the wrist if you use a trailer winch as a replacement for your keel winch.
The most common installation error is winding the cable onto the drum backwards. The clutch will not engage if the cable is installed backwards!
6) Yes, tension on the keel cable from the weight of the keel must be applied to the drum for the clutch to engage properly. It is difficult to experience the proper operation of the clutch mechanism unless the winch is installed and the keel is being supported by it.
7) Never attempt to adjust the two jam nuts on the main input shaft which adjust the relative position of the clutch components from their original factory settings,
8) If you inspect the keel winch and its condition makes you wonder if it needs replacing, you just answered you own question. The fiberglass damage caused by a keel which free-falls from a fully retracted position can be fatal to your boat. Every year we have at least a couple of customers whose insurance company total their boats because they were unwilling to repair the damage caused by such an incident. |
John Martin
Silver Spring, Md
Boat Name:
Model/Year: C-22 1976 Swing Keel
Hull No. 5163
Hailing Port: Mayo, Md |
04/10/2005 8:02 PM Pacific Time
Lowell,
Thanks for your info about the keel winch. It was timely. I just got my new (old) Cat 22 (1976) this weekend. Its still on the trailer.
To launch, I raised the keel off of the rollers. Unfortunately, when I turn the handle counterclockwise, it simply unscrews.
Obviously there is a pall in there that clicks when raising and catches when up. When I want to lower, I move the keel handle slowly counterclockwise, I feel it hit the pall, and then it unscrews and comes off.
Without knowing the inner workings, can you tell me if I am on the right track?...Put a screwdriver up there to hold the drum from turning, turn the handle clockwise until it really torques itself down onto the fiber washer, then gently try couterlockwise to see if the clutch will engage without unscrewing the handle. Am I close? I'm guessing at how the thing works.
John |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
04/11/2005 12:52 AM Pacific Time
Hi John - You have it backwards. The idea is for the clutch to release so the weight of the keel can pull the cable off the drum and allow the keel to lower.
I suspect what has happened in your case is that you either have a wrap of cable on the drum which is preventing the cable from paying out, or the winch is so rusty that the drum will not turn on the pivot. The drum is held into the winch body by a 3/8 bolt which is inserted through a steel sleeve through the spindle of the drum. I have seen this setup rust so badly that even a screw driver could not turn the drum. Try loosening the bolt by backing the nut off a turn or two. If that doesn't work, or even if it does, it is time to invest in a new winch. Get the CD version for the reasons Lowell stated. |
John Martin
Silver Spring, Md
Boat Name:
Model/Year: C-22 1976 Swing Keel
Hull No. 5163
Hailing Port: Mayo, Md |
04/11/2005 5:40 AM Pacific Time
Thanks Dick - I'll check it next weekend and let you know. I thought since I had raised the keel up 3-4" to get it off the trailer rollers that would mean the drum was not rusted or a turn was stuck.
So far it has been fun. New boat (to me), investigating all the nooks and crannies, seeing how things work...Now, to sail it. :) |
