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Justin Collins
Tallahassee, Fl
Boat Name:
Model/Year: Cat 22 / 1979
Hull No. 9053
Hailing Port: Lanark Village |
 07/06/2004 7:54 AM Pacific Time
This weekend as we were motoring out to sail, I was alerted to my keel cable breaking as the keel slammed forward rather thunderously. I did manage to get the keel back up (another story that I will tell if anyone wants to hear), and the boat back on the trailer. I did not see any damage, but could not directly see what the keel slammed into as it fell. I imagine it hits the front of keel trunk. Has anyone else had this happen? Is this area of the trunk strong enough to withstand this? Is there anyway to tell if damage was sustained without removng the keel? Also, I have not determined what caused the cable to break. What I have read hear leads me to think the turning ball may have stopped turning and started grinding the cable. By the time we got the boat back on the trailer I was just ready to be done with it. I'll have to inspect it next weekend, I just want to know what to look for. Thanks for any ideas.
Justin |
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
07/07/2004 6:32 AM Pacific Time
Please tell us how you got it back up. This is my worst nightmare!
Robert |
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
07/07/2004 7:22 AM Pacific Time
The keel is housed over a bronze casting which secures the keel in the c-22. This bronze casting called the keel hanger casting allows the keel to be hoisted up and down.
the keel is stopped when it is fully extended or comes in contact with the forward position of the boat.
When your keel cable snapped the full water weight of the keel was stopped when it made contact with the reinforced bottom of the boat. The most of the stress would have been on the keel hanger casting.
Check under the boat for any cracks or loose fitting and tighten every thing. Make sure you don't have wobble in the keel and go sailing. |
Justin Collins
Tallahassee, Fl
Boat Name:
Model/Year: Cat 22 / 1979
Hull No. 9053
Hailing Port: Lanark Village |
07/07/2004 8:48 AM Pacific Time
I made a detailed description of events/story in my log. I will post it here when I get home, Its kind of long though so I may have to edit it a bit.
Thanks for the info on where and what damage to look for.
Justin |
Michael Smalter
Webster, NY
Boat Name: Marrakesh
Model/Year: 1986
Hull No. 13645
Hailing Port: Rochester, NY |
07/07/2004 10:56 AM Pacific Time
I've had my cable break twice. No serious damage either time. I dropped the keel and inspected the keel well and didn't see any damage after the second time. I did notice that one or two of the bolts that hold the keel pin blocks to the hull were stretched. When you think about it, when the keel stops suddenly against the keel well, it probably puts a 45 degree shock extension force on the bolts. I'd replace all 4 bolts.
Before you replace the cable, make sure you have a new turning ball, volcano hose, and 2 stainless hose clamps. If you don't need to replace them, keep them as spares.
I'd be interested in where your cable broke. Both times mine broke about 2 inchs above the swage, probably where the cable rests on the turning ball when the cable is full up. I figured it was fatigue failure and have started to alternate my keel raising among full up (29 turns), 28 turns, and 27 turns. Note that I keep my boat in the water, and the wave action 24/7 probably fatigues things differently than trailer sailing. |
Justin Collins
Tallahassee, Fl
Boat Name:
Model/Year: Cat 22 / 1979
Hull No. 9053
Hailing Port: Lanark Village |
07/07/2004 3:00 PM Pacific Time
I hope I fare as well. The cable broke about where you described it. A few inches above the swage. At first I suspected the turning ball as well. But then I had some other thoughts (see this post: http://www.catalinadirect.com/forums/fr_topic.cfm?topic_id=2203 ). I guess I will only know for sure when I get back down to the boat and do a thorough inspection. As for changing how far up/down I raise the keel, the boat is trailered for a majority of the time with the keel resting on the trailer. But now that I think about it we do motor a fair ways out, sometimes through moderate chop that bounces the keel around a bit. And when we sleep on the boat the keel is up and does rock back and forth with the waves. This fall I plan to install the spacers to eliminate the keel clunk, this will probably also reduce the ware on the cable as well. The story follows .... |
Justin Collins
Tallahassee, Fl
Boat Name:
Model/Year: Cat 22 / 1979
Hull No. 9053
Hailing Port: Lanark Village |
07/07/2004 3:10 PM Pacific Time
This was the email I sent to a sailing friend describing the ordeal ....
Hadn't heard from you in a while so I thought I would check in. Plus I have an interesting story! Hope you are having a great 4th, well I hope they gave you the day off at least. Anyway, grab a beer and sit down while I tell you about my latest sailing adventure. I think once you have been through about 3 or 4 of these experiences, and lived to tell the tale, or at least brought your boat back, folks start to call you an old salt. I don't know if I'm there yet, but I do have one more good story to tell the kids!
The sea was angry that day my friends .... don't all good stories start that way! Anyway it wasn't too bad, but a typical Florida afternoon had me trying to dodge thunderstorms until we could get close to Dog Island. The plan being that if it got bad we could anchor up and swim into shore and wait out the lightning under a house. This plan has worked in the past, and I figured we would be ok once we got out to the island. There was however a thunderhead building between us and the island, so I was manuvering between it and the storms on the mainland trying to avoid going directly under any. The sky was clear and blue behind them so I thought if we could just get around these we would be fine for the rest of the day.
All this occured motoring, I don't mind sailing around these storms, but I need to have an experienced crew that can lower sails quickly if needed, these storms can send high winds in a hurry sometimes. As it was I had my dear mother and her boyfriend, experieced in enjoying the water and sun, but not much else. So luckily we were motoring. Out of know where there is a huge thunderous crash, and that shook the boat like the iceberg shook the Titanic. I immediatly cut the motor, scrambled up front to drop the anchor, and checked for water in the cabin. None, thank god. That would really have been an adventure. I thought we had hit something, but with the keel up, we only draw about 2 feet, and the rudder goes down about 3, plus I sail this area all the time and knew we had to be in 20 feet of water. Plus the tide was coming in, so it would have had to been something barely below the surface. But nothing would surprise me in this bay. Anyway, I keep a mask and fins on the boat so I can inspect the bottom, or find glasses or keys that have been dropped. So I donned the snorkeling gear and jumped in to see what I could see as the storms approached.
When I got in the water I found the keel down. The cable holding the back up had broken, and the crashing we heard was the 600 lb keel slamming forward. That cannot be good, but I will have to remove the pivot bolt to inspect for damage. The most pressing problem at this point is raising the keel. The marina I sail out of is in very shallow water. There is a channel but getting to it means going through shallow water, easily less than 3 feet at times. I return to the crew and explain what has happened, and what it means to us. We discuss various options, generally what to do immediatly with the approaching storm. Should we motor toward the island, risk running right under the storm as it approaches. At least then we could anchor and wait it out under a house. Then maybe we could use the moter to kind of push the keel pack as it dragged on the bottom. Not knowing how far back a 5 hp motor could push a 600 lb piece of iron, and what damage to the pivot assembly might already have been done I decided against this option. We were going to wait it out and see. Luckily the storm sort of dissipated before it got to us, but not before the temp. dropped and the wind had picked up significantly. Hey, I'ld rather be lucky than good.
It is now about 12:30 or so. I happen to know that the high tide will turn at about 3:30, because the previous day I tried to help another (novice I should say, but that is another story) boater push/pull his boat off the beach at Dog Island as the tide went out from under him. We did not succeed, but that info was invaluable today. The plan that I came up with was to run my spare anchor line, 5/8", twisted stran line, not woven nylon, no stretch etc., actually better than the line I use, but its about 200 ft long. Too long for my normal anchorages, but nice to have just in case, in more ways than one in this instance. I managed to run this line from one winch under the boat and in front of the keel to the other winch. Luckily I still have my winch handles, although this is the first time I have used them. As we crank the rope in it is pulling the keel back! I suddenly feel like we may survive this ordeal. My mother's boyfriend is cracking the winch as I watch through the mask, he has it almost half way up but has warn himself out doing it (he is 50+ yrs old and diabetic and has already checked his blood sugar finding it low once, I didn't want to push him in this state). Thinking we are almost there I got out of the water to pull it up the rest of the way. I cranked away, with no one in the water to watch, I did not see the rope sliding toward the bottom of the keel. Another crash! Ugggh. It took us an hour to get it half way.
It appears we are still bouyant at least, but I know everytime we fail we risk becoming not. We discuss other options, but are unable to come up with a better way. The problem is that the winches are aft of the end of the keel. Eventually when the keel is up high enough the rope is pulled off the end.
At least the storms have abated, but now every power boat coming in swings by to see what is going on, although none of them stop to offer help. Not that I would have taken any from those fools!!! But I did thank them for the nice wake they sent, the old middle fingher salute if you know what I mean. At this point I am thinking about what we can do if we get back to the dock where my tools are and a ride if we need to go to town for anything. We decide to get the keel up as far as we can and try to get in. I am thinking if we hit the entrance to the channel right at high tide and we get the keel up half way or so we stand a reasonable chance of getting back to the marina, we can re-evaluate then. If we don't, we are really screwed. We do manage to get the keel half way up with me watching as the boyfriend cranks slowly. When the rope begins to slip I tell him to stop. We are now drawing about 3 ft. This will have to do.
We begn motoring slowly back, after I have tied the rope lifting the keel to the bow cleats hoping to prevent any more slippage from the water going under the boat or wakes bouncing us a bit. Having assisted the boater on the previous day I know that high tide is about 3:30 and we have time. Ideally if we hit the channel entrance at that time, I think we can make it. As we slowly motor back, I complain allowed that if we only had driven my truck down, we would have had my (uh, or yours rather) trailer straps. Then we could use them, moving them forward of the winches to raise the keel. At this point the boyfriend pipes up, "Well I have trailer straps in my truck", he says.
"I love it when a plan comes together", think that was spoken by a member of the A-team, truer words were never spoken. To make a long story short, we hit the entrance to the channel right at high tide and made it pack to the dock. We were able get the trailer straps and use them to raise the keel, and get the boat back on the trailer where it sits waiting for repair. Hopefully next weekend. This adventure being over, I hope everythng has been well for you. |
Paul David
Melbourne Australia
Boat Name: Reflections
Model/Year: 1986
Hull No. 13369
Hailing Port: Melbourne Australia |
07/07/2004 11:41 PM Pacific Time
Justin and others - God forbid if I ever lost my keel cable, I'd try and motor the boat into the shallows and anchor into the wind, and so that the keel was touching the bottom and beginning to swing upwards (assuming there is no swell rocking the boat too much), then using the ropes under the keel as Justin did. Being in the shallows would restrict the fall.
If there were a chop forcing the boat to spin around on the grounded keel it could cause more problems as it torques around on the fittings. I did that once with the keel down at the ramp, and the cracking noises coming from the bottom were not comforting, to say the least.
Paul |
Greg Nelson
Rose Haven, MD/Oro Valley,AZ
Boat Name: SOBB TOO
Model/Year: 1975/6
Hull No. 5953
Hailing Port: Deale, MD |
07/08/2004 4:19 AM Pacific Time
I lost a keel cable last year. It also broke in the infamouse 2-4 inches above the swag. I limped back to my slip. After much effort and many expletives needing deletion, I thought I had pulled the keel back up with a line around the hull. Turned out I had missed it. I did manage to get it on the trailer. No damage to hull I could find though there were places where the cable had worn the boot down to the fiberglass.
The worst/best part was that I went ahead and dropped the keel. MY KEEL PIN WAS WORN OVER HALF WAY THROUGH BY THE DREADED KLUNKING WE HAVE ALL GROWN TO LOVE. If it had broken I'd have had a real disaster. No one needs a 550 lb. anchor. Therefore, I recommend you check the whole thing while you are at it. |
Bob Vick
Caldwell, TX
Boat Name: Over Keel
Model/Year: <1985
Hull No. 13059
Hailing Port: Lake Somerville |
07/08/2004 6:48 AM Pacific Time
I suspect my keel cable is 19 years old; & do plan to change it soon. I leave my keel down for two reasons:
1 – no strain on the cable, ball, pin, volcano, or chance to rub the exterior hull.
2 – with the keel down the swinging motion from the rocking of the boat is eliminated at the keel castings/pin/bolts & the boat is more stable at the dock. My keel has no clunk with the CD spacer kit & callipered faring. The only time I raise the keel is shallow water & anchorage.
My boat sits in fresh water & I might have a different opinion in saltwater. However with it down it cannot fall and cause damage. 6” or 6’ of weak cable seems to have the same effect.
Bob Vick
Caldwell, TX
C 22 #13059
Over Keel
|
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
07/09/2004 4:42 AM Pacific Time
Hi Bob V.- I disagree with your statememt that there is "1 – no strain on the cable, ball, pin, volcano, or chance to rub the exterior hull." With keel fully down, the entire weight of the keel is on the hanger assembly rather than being shared between the pivot pin and the cable winch. The head of the keel is resting and rubbing on the aft side of the upper keel trunk. As the boat rocks from wave action, the long lever arm of the lowered keel is loading the keel hangers alternately in compression and stretch as the keel attempts to swing back and forth. When the keel is retracted, the lever arm is much shorter. When the keel is fully up and the keel winch is aligned properly,
there should be no load on the turning ball or its mounting.. |
Wes Van Nurden
Chippewa Falls, WI
Boat Name: Puddle Jumper
Model/Year: C-22 1982
Hull No. 11164
Hailing Port: Lake Wissota, Chippewa Falls, WI |
07/09/2004 6:02 AM Pacific Time
After reading about the fallen keels and the problems getting them back up I'm thinking it might be good to have some sort of harness to fit under the keel for raising it if the cable does break. The harness could tie to the jib sheets or other suitable lines and be made such that is will stay on the keel as it is raised and not slip forward.
My boat sits at a mooring and I do leave the keel down all the time. It does keep it from sailing around the mooring as much. My thoughts are the with the keel down the stress is one the keel bolts (hopefully the design of the boat was made for this). With the keel locked down I'm thinking it should minimize movement of the keel. Also I heard of someone (I think on this list) that actually had a keel fall when at a mooring and the boat sank.
My 2 cents worth.
Wes Van Nurden
|
Bob Vick
Caldwell, TX
Boat Name: Over Keel
Model/Year: <1985
Hull No. 13059
Hailing Port: Lake Somerville |
07/09/2004 6:34 AM Pacific Time
Dick,
I see your point. My keel cable was run on the wrong side of the ball originally so I did see wear there when doing the bottom. My keel fits so tight in the trunk there is no room for movement. (The real reason I lowered it was my boot stripe was off, when I lowered the keel I was amazed how the boat leveled out.)
You are correct if the winch is up all of the way, it should be just pull on the winch line & not the ball etc. I leave mine lose enough down to take the hum out, so there is no cable hanging pressure. Only the bolts make the debate...
Like everything, there are two sides to the issue, thanks for the off setting ideas.
Bob Vick
Caldwell, TX
C 22 #13059
Over Keel
|
Kevin and Pat
Miranda, CA
Boat Name: HOPE
Model/Year: Catalina 22 1971
Hull No. #403
Hailing Port: Miranda, CA |
10/10/2005 9:51 PM Pacific Time
..Has anyone come up with a way to eliminate the keel cable?
We had a Pelican which we sailed Tomales Bay, CA for a number of years. The Pelican (for those who don’t already know) is a12 ft plywood dory/pram/sampan that has a retractable keel/centerboard with no ballast in a centerboard box. The keel/centerboard pivots on a pin in the cb box just above the waterline.(similar in a way to a C22). A portion of the keel protrudes above the centerboard box and you lower the keel by pulling back on the top portion and raise it by pushing forward. Pretty simple.
If a way was found to attach a suitable lever to the swing keel of a C22 above the pin, strong enough to raise and lower the keel, would this exert more force on the pin and castings than they are built to handle? Thanks. |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
10/11/2005 3:13 AM Pacific Time
The keel is just that. It not just a center board to help prevent leeway. It also counter balances the weight of the rigging and the force of the wind. It weighs about 550 lbs. Without the weight, the boat wuld capsize. You would have to have a really long lever arm to swing the keel up against gravity. The winch provides a machine with enough mechanical advantage to lift the keel. |
Bilbo
Youngstown, Ohio
Boat Name: Sea Dog
Model/Year: Catalina 22 1987
Hull No. 13971
Hailing Port: Andover, Ohio |
10/11/2005 3:25 AM Pacific Time
I'm estimating that the lever arm for the 550 lb keel (Which is a good +3 ft long/high) would have to be about 15 feet long. The lever arm out of necessity, would have to extend up so that when the keel is up, the arm would be above the bow pulpit. When down, it could be used as a second fore-mast since it would swing up and aft. It would not be very efficient even at this setup because one would need an elevated gangway to utilize the mechanical efficiency. |
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