Bob Vick
Caldwell, TX
Boat Name: Over Keel
Model/Year: <1985
Hull No. 13059
Hailing Port: Lake Somerville |
 01/14/2004 8:01 AM Pacific Time
After watching a few “Round the World Alone” races, US sails/CD sails seem to be one of the better long lasting sails that won in all conditions. When reading the other Sail web sites it is confusing & expensive to get good short life racing sails.
Now that CD has full battened open footed sails would that be the best choice for cruising club racing. I am only 90 miles from the #1 racer Hummingbird so I would like to have something that would convince me it was the sailor & not the sails that cost me a race.
Any suggestions?
Happy sailing,
Bob Vick
Caldwell, TX
C 22 #13059
Over Keel
|
Bayard Gross
Greenwich, CT
Boat Name: Baby Blue
Model/Year: 1981
Hull No. 9911
Hailing Port: Greenwich, CT |
01/19/2004 9:28 PM Pacific Time
Mr. Vick:
I am familiar with the keel pin you designed. I have on a number of occasions referred it to other C-22 sailors. I am delighted to encounter you on this web site.
Nevertheless, regarding your inquiry about a main sail, I read a discussion about main sails by Doyle sail makers that notes the particular merits of loose footed versus bolt ropes on mains. It also discussed for battens weather partial, upper full with partial lower battens, or all full battens produced the better sail.
It is their opinion that loose-footed mains do provide a better ability to control the shape of the main sail foot. A boltrope on a main can limit the ability to fully shape the foot when the outhaul is released, although this is mitigated somewhat by having a foot shelf installed. Further, a loose-footed main will have less friction than a boltrope when tensioning the main, thereby making it easier to tension the outhaul.
There is the concern that a boltrope main is stronger than a loose-footed main as it pulls down along the length of the foot especially when a boom vang is applied. However, a properly manufactured loose-footed main sail should not encounter any weakness here. Loose-footed mains have been used for years and there is sufficient expertise on how to build them.
Regarding battens, Doyle’s opinion is that the best combination of battens, is full battens on top and partial battens on the bottom, or for a C-22, the top two full and the bottom two partial. The rational for this is that full battens on the bottom do not permit as good sail shape as do partial battens on the bottom. Full battens work well on top, but one will gain the ability to better shape the main sail with partial battens on the bottom two of a C-22 main.
The C-22 main sails that Catalina Direct offers are loose footed, made of about five and one half ounce material, and have Gary Ullman at least providing input on the design. However, one has all partial battens throughout and the other full battens throughout. While I myself would be more inclined to get the full batten main primarily as it would last longer, I think for better racing ability the partial batten might be wiser. Again, there are other opinions on this matter. I wish Catalina Direct offered a main with the two top battens full and the bottom two partial and in accordance with the design attributes of the Catalina 22 National Sailing Association.
On a main sail specifically for racing, I think using a boltrope on the mast in place of slugs (some people call them slides) is advantageous. Catalina Direct sails have sail slugs. Potentially, one could remove the slugs from a main with sail slugs before a race and hoist the main up into the groove in the mast. I do not think there would be any increased difficulty for reefing the main by doing this. While this will not be as perfect as a sail without the grommets for the slugs, it should provide a smoother surface than leaving the slugs on.
Further, I also think it is advantageous to install internal halyards onto a C-22. It is shameful to have a beautiful new main corrupted by bad air going around the main and jib halyards in front of it on the mast. While I do not have internal halyards myself, I at least partially solved that issue by using a CDI furler that has its own internal halyard. This eliminates one of the halyards on the mast. (As a side, the CDI furler with its one-piece extrusion allows successful operation of my backstay adjuster, a device that could split open furlers that are assembled in several pieces.)
I replaced my Catalina manufactured original 1981 main with a newer Catalina manufactured main in 2000 when the Catalina 22 National Sailing Association was developing new rules regarding the use of full battens. At that time I decided to wait to get a more expensive full batten, or full and partial batten main waiting to see if there would be any new developments that determined the best configuration for a main sail. This was primarily an economy purchase as I truly needed a new main, but like you, was not all that convinced about whether full battens were the best way to go. Interestingly enough, the Catalina factory ticket that came with the main lists the luff as twenty feet and nine inches which is significantly shorter, even allowing for a tight halyard, than the twenty-one feet allowed by the Catalina 22 National Sailing Association. Hence, I think any main sail by any manufacturer other than Catalina itself will be a bigger and thereby better main sail, assuming that the luff is made closer to a full twenty-one feet.
I hope you have successful races against Pete Harper in the future. Besides, If you do obtain a new main sail and beat Mr.Harper, you can always tell him it is not the sail but rather the keel pin that you use.
|
Mark Dauphinais
Harvest, AL
Boat Name: SoJourner
Model/Year: 1988
Hull No. 14412
Hailing Port: Rogersville, AL |
01/20/2004 9:53 AM Pacific Time
I would also be interested in feedback on the full batten main. I am planning on buying one from CD in the near future. I like the jack line on the luff slide that allows reefing without removing the lowere slide from the mast. All comment are appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
01/20/2004 3:48 PM Pacific Time
Mark - About twenty years ago, I wrote an article for the Mainsheet about reefing. Included in the article was a description and drawings of the jackline system on my previous boat. It is reprinted in the 2001 Catalina 22 Tech Manual on page 4-42. There is also an article on Jacklines by Zack Taylor on page 4-43. |
Mark Dauphinais
Harvest, AL
Boat Name: SoJourner
Model/Year: 1988
Hull No. 14412
Hailing Port: Rogersville, AL |
01/21/2004 6:59 AM Pacific Time
Dick,
Thanks, I have read the Tech Manual, but I guess I missed that part. It is a good article. If I don't buy the CD Main Sail, I will use your technique on my new sail.
Thanks again,
Mark |
Bob Vick
Caldwell, TX
Boat Name: Over Keel
Model/Year: <1985
Hull No. 13059
Hailing Port: Lake Somerville |
01/21/2004 6:59 AM Pacific Time
Thank you for your excellent dissertation on mainsails & addressing the many aspects of their configuration. The concept of limited vang response on an open footed sail is one thing I had not considered. When team New Zealand lost their boom I did wonder about the stress on the open foot main. Rumor has it that Pete Harper has moved to Dallas, just a little further down the road. There are no official reports of him shaking in his boots, they say he makes zero mistakes on the racecourse.
Bob Vick
Caldwell, TX
C 22 #13059
Over Keel
|
Jim Johnstone
Austin, TX
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: Lake Travis, TX |
01/25/2004 8:35 AM Pacific Time
Bob, Bartlett Sails in Austin and Gus Sails north of Dallas both make great racing sails for the C22.
Yes it is True that Pete Harper has left Lake Travis fleet 69 and is now sailing on Grapevine Lake North of Dallas.
He does make mistakes, I saw him lose a crew overboard one time, but he was so far ahead of me it did not affect the outcome of the race.
Winning racing is all about making fewer mistakes than your opponents, starting with boat prep and ending with what you do on the water.
Jim
|
Mark Dauphinais
Harvest, AL
Boat Name: SoJourner
Model/Year: 1988
Hull No. 14412
Hailing Port: Rogersville, AL |
05/05/2004 1:27 PM Pacific Time
I purchased the CD loose footed/full batten main. I really like it and have noticed significant performance increase. One problem I have had is the battens tend to hit my back stay. This was more apparent when gybing in light winds and the main did not want to cross over. Has anyone else had this problem? Could my main be to high? Suggestions?
Thanks,
Mark |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22 '76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
05/06/2004 4:40 AM Pacific Time
Mark, the usual problem is that you do not have the boom fang tight enough to hold the sail straight as it goes across. The roach, the out ward curve of the leach, is put in to give you the most sail area for the boom and hoist dimensions. It will rub a bit but not hang-up, even held straight. It only hangs on me if the boom fang is not tight enough to hold the boom from 'kiting'. For what it's worth,
Al Ge |
Austin Cooley
Honeoye Falls, NY
Boat Name: Wings of the Morning
Model/Year: Catalina 22, 1983
Hull No. 11602
Hailing Port: Keuka Lake, Branchport, NY |
05/07/2004 5:08 PM Pacific Time
There were a couple of comments about a keel pin in this listing. What's going on with this?
Ausitn Cooley
|
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
05/08/2004 6:56 PM Pacific Time
I have read all the info in this posting and really appreciate some of the things said. I have a new main with full battens and I, too, had some serious concern about it hitting my backstay. I,too, find that the sail sticks out well past the backstay as was mentioned earlier even with the vang on snug. In order to clear the backstay I had to drop the main down almost 2 feet. Now I must admit that I didn't rear down on the vang (and this might have made some difference) but I had no wind at all and the sail simply hung straight when I noticed how much it overlapped. It does concern me. I assume the sail is to go as high as possible on the mast but this is definitely going to cause wear on the sail as it rubs on the backstay. I actually thought my sail may have been made wrong and was glad to see that someone else had the same problem. Of course finding that the foot didn't have a bolt rope and was loose footed added to my concern that I may have the wrong sail. Thank goodness for the forum and the comments.
Earlier I wrote about a concern on roller furling but have worked most of that out. Harken had the wrong directions on what they sent me. I have it working now but the crane that connects on the top swivel still wants to wrap around the forestay. Any suggestions on how to prevent this would be appreciated. Great place to come for answers.
Dick , I hope you are enjoying the engine. |
Scott Sauve
Newmarket, NH
Boat Name: LaVoile
Model/Year: 1989 Wing Keel
Hull No. 14609
Hailing Port: Sunset Marina-Portland, ME |
05/10/2004 2:57 PM Pacific Time
Hi All;
I had to weigh in on this one. Couple of points I noted in this string. First is the furlers and the advantage of CDI vs. multiple part furlers (Schaefer for instance with a 2 part foil). They all have a forestay running through them so there is no opportunity for them to split. One issue I had with the CDI furler is the lack of ability to adjust the luff tension appropriately. I like having a halyard to make the adjustment where no additional tension is put on the furler unit or the foil, just on the luff of the sail. The CDI furler compresses the foil to get tension on the luff. Over the years that tenion made the foil develop a kind of "S-curve" pattern.
The Main:
I agree that the full uppers and partial lower bats are the way to go. I also like the open foot as I can shape the main much better than the with the captures shelf foot.
( have had both on the boat)
Regarding the interference with the backstay. Just a few things to check.
-Mast Rake. If the mast is clost to vertical or slanted forward it moves the backstay forward and can contact the sail more.
-The leach is not the main issue, as I believe the leach is measured as a straight line from the head to the clew. Thus a few inches may not be critical (if your not a racer) The variation is the "Roach" of the sail. That is the sail aft of the leach measurement line...and that is why we need the battens to hold out the roach. This may vary significantly from sail maker to sail maker and may be larger on total full batten sails.
That's my 2 cents worth.
|
Russ Devans
Buffalo NY
Boat Name: N E Wind
Model/Year: C22 1981
Hull No. 10248
Hailing Port: Port Colborne, Ontario, Canada |
05/11/2004 9:19 AM Pacific Time
Hi! does anyone know what the original outhaul is. Is there an eye that fits intp the boom slot to tie the outhaul to? What is the stock set up for a C-22? |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
05/11/2004 4:07 PM Pacific Time
On some very basic boats, I have seen a plastic "bullseye" secured to the outboard end of the boom sailtrack. The "outhaul" consisted of a short line from the clew of the mainsail which is tied to the bullseye. Totally inadquate!!! |
Russ Devans
Buffalo NY
Boat Name: N E Wind
Model/Year: C22 1981
Hull No. 10248
Hailing Port: Port Colborne, Ontario, Canada |
05/12/2004 6:03 AM Pacific Time
Dick, I have the outhaul you mentioned a short piece of line tied to a strap ring at the end of the boom. I would like to keep it simple ;but have the outhaul set up the way it should be. Help! |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
05/12/2004 7:30 AM Pacific Time
Hi Russ - On my previous boat, ELIXIR, I attached a small single swivel block to the clew of the mainsail. I attached a cheek block on the side of the boom, as far back as it would go. (In fact, the aft two screws were tapped into the end cap.
I then mounted a vertical clam cleat on the same side of the boom, far enough forward to allow me to reach it when the boom was all the way out. (I also added a couple of small eye straps to keep the line from hanging down between the two.) I tied a stopper knot in the end of a piece of TWISTED 1/4 inch line and ran it forward, through the eye strap on the top of the boom, through the swivel block, back to the checkblock and then forward to the vertical clam cleat. The system gives you a two to one purchase and full control of the foot tension of the mainsail.. For it to work effectively, however, you have to ease the main to the point of luffing, otherwise the low mechanical advantage will not overcome the friction of the boom sail track. |
Philip L .KWASINSKI
Chicago Illinois
Boat Name: O Wa Diddy
Model/Year: 1981
Hull No. 10523
Hailing Port: Chicago |
05/13/2004 4:39 AM Pacific Time
For a good inexpensive external outhaul go to Harken's website and go onto compu spec. I installed it and it works wonerfully, Philip |
ERIC
CAMERON PARK,CA
Boat Name: SUNFLOWER
Model/Year: C-22 1970
Hull No. 247
Hailing Port: MARTINEZ |
10/15/2004 6:50 PM Pacific Time
I was thinking about a new main for my C-22 and was wondering what everyone here recommended. Has anyone used the Ullman sails that CD sells? I do mostly cruising in the SF bay and Lake Folsom CA. I've never raced the boat before but might like to try it in the future. |
Michael Smalter
Webster, NY
Boat Name: Marrakesh
Model/Year: 1986
Hull No. 13645
Hailing Port: Rochester, NY |
10/15/2004 8:16 PM Pacific Time
I have a full batten main with lazy jacks and love it. It may not be legal for one design racing. Others on the list will have that info. |
Mark Dauphinais
Harvest, AL
Boat Name: SoJourner
Model/Year: 1988
Hull No. 14412
Hailing Port: Rogersville, AL |
10/16/2004 5:08 AM Pacific Time
I bought the Ullman full batten, loose footed main from CD and have been very pleased with it. I have used it for cruising and racing. Great Sail.
Mark |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
10/17/2004 9:41 AM Pacific Time
Eric - If you are thinking about racing or someday selling the boat, I suggest before you buy a mainsail from anyone have them certify with a money back guarantee in writing, that the sail meets all Catalina 22 National Sailing Association One Design Rules. Sometime ago, a friend bought a genoa. Because he did specify that it should meet class rules, the sailmaker built a sail with a 155% overlap (PHRF legal). As a result, my friend's sail was not class legal (150% max) and could not use it in Catalina 22 fleet racing.
The mainsail rules in para E.1 and E.6 can be found here:http://www.catalina22.org/ClassRules/classrules.htm
|
Artur Piotrowski
Burlington, Ct
Boat Name: Spirit
Model/Year: C22 1986
Hull No. 13485
Hailing Port: Bantam, Ct |
01/18/2005 10:48 AM Pacific Time
Guys, I did unthinkable, I ordered my new sails not from CD. I placed my order with Doyle Sailmakers and it looks like I got a good deal. I will be getting a mainsail and Genoa. First one is a performance cruising, 2+2, loose-footed main. Whole package is only slightly more than CD’s offshore (made) set. Since this place is managed by CD contact me at [email protected] for more details. Thanks.
"Spirit" #13485 |
Kevin and Pat
Miranda, CA
Boat Name: HOPE
Model/Year: Catalina 22 1971
Hull No. #403
Hailing Port: Miranda, CA |
10/14/2005 8:09 PM Pacific Time
If we intend to sail our boat in winds over 15 kts and were thinking of a new main or rebuilding the main, how many reef points would you reccomend? We were thinking three. |
PHILIP & SHARON MERLIER
FELLSMERE, FLORIDA
Boat Name: SWIZZLE STICK
Model/Year: 1990 C22
Hull No.
Hailing Port: FELLSMERE, FLORIDA |
10/15/2005 12:18 AM Pacific Time
We often sail our C22 in winds greater than 15knots. I recommend two sets of reef points. A double reefed main and a storm jib will get you through just about anything that you will be out in. |
Michael Smalter
Webster, NY
Boat Name: Marrakesh
Model/Year: 1986
Hull No. 13645
Hailing Port: Rochester, NY |
10/15/2005 6:58 AM Pacific Time
I agree with Phillip and Sharon. I have 2 sets of reef points (with single line reefing setup on both). I have used teh 2nd reef more than once, but have never wanted a 3rd reef. |
Kevin and Pat
Miranda, CA
Boat Name: HOPE
Model/Year: Catalina 22 1971
Hull No. #403
Hailing Port: Miranda, CA |
10/16/2005 8:01 PM Pacific Time
Pulling things out ot the basket that came with our basket case we have come to the main sail. Our boat is #403 but the mainsail is #14. The sail was built by Lee and has a C/22 logo. CD battens fit although seem a bit skinny.
The luff is 19’6” loose, so probably close to 20’ stretched out.
The foot is only 8 feet!
There is one set of reef points.
The sail is in good condition but seems to us to be a bit “high aspect”.
The boom is 9’ 7.5” . Looks C/22 but we don’t know what year.
Can some one explain what we have here?
|
Carlos
Fajardo, PR
Boat Name: Perfect Time
Model/Year: Catalina 22' - 1971
Hull No. 474
Hailing Port: |
01/04/2006 8:19 AM Pacific Time
I have to purchase a new main. Is someone has any experience with National Sail Supply in FL? |
Greg Guenther
Belleville, IL
Boat Name: Magnificat
Model/Year: 1970
Hull No. 473
Hailing Port: Belleville, IL |
11/18/2006 11:12 AM Pacific Time
Greetings all,
I know that this is an old thread but I am in the process of getting a new mainsail for my boat. The one I have I am certain that it is the original and is in really bad shape.
My question is this. I am mainly a cruiser and would love to race except that there are no other C22's racing at Carlyle Lake and I end up last.
Should I purchase a "standard" bolt rope main that is fixed into the boom or should I go for a "Loose footed" main? Full Batten or not?
I am no expert at all on this subject and would appreciate any advice anyone would like to give me including who to buy from.
Thanks for the time and consideration.
Greg |
Paul McLaughlin
Walnut Creek, CA
Boat Name: Tiare
Model/Year: C22 Swing keel, 1982
Hull No. 10890
Hailing Port: SF Bay |
11/18/2006 12:08 PM Pacific Time
I am no expert either. I have an older main. The bolt rope on the foot was worn and would start to pull out of the slot in the boom near the clew. I took it to a sail loft for repair. The sailmaker advised me to let him convert the sail to loose footed which I agreed to. I noticed a substantial improvement in my ability to shape the main once it was loose footed and with just a slide at the clew, my 4:1 outhaul worked like a champ. I've sailed it in light winds and up to 20kts + and I really love it. In fact, I was going to buy a new main but now I am putting it off for at least a couple of years more.
As far as batten length is concerned, I couldn't tell you much about the performance differences between std, partial full and full are. I gotta believe, though that full battens on the top two spots has to be a good compromise between racing and cruising and in cost.
Good luck. |
Dick Reynolds
Lebanon, Oregon
Boat Name: Catnip
Model/Year: Swing Keel / 1974
Hull No. 4570
Hailing Port: Newport, Oregon |
11/19/2006 6:50 PM Pacific Time
Seeing as the topic of this thread is "Main Sail" my question is this: My battens are tapered. I have never had tapered battens before so do the thin ends of the battens go in our out???? |
David Torrisi
Santa Clara, CA
Boat Name: Dumbo
Model/Year: 1975 C-22
Hull No. 4330
Hailing Port: Santa Clara |
11/19/2006 7:38 PM Pacific Time
Dick,
The thin end should be at the end closest to the luff and the thick end goes at the leach. I've marked mine with a permanent marked so there's no confusion.
Fair Winds,
David |
Dick Reynolds
Lebanon, Oregon
Boat Name: Catnip
Model/Year: Swing Keel / 1974
Hull No. 4570
Hailing Port: Newport, Oregon |
11/20/2006 8:14 PM Pacific Time
Thanks. I had a feeling thats the way it should be. Dick |
Leo Zimmermann
Chocowinity NC
Boat Name:
Model/Year: Catalina 30/1989
Hull No. 5490
Hailing Port: Chocowinity NC |
10/06/2020 6:09 PM Pacific Time
I just bought a 1989 Cat 30 MK II, hull 5490. I have a fully battened North Main. The main is very, very hard to raise. The previous owner had several cans of "Blaster Dry Lube" with Teflon on board. Is this part of the solution, or part of the problem? The mast is down at the moment. I checked the sheave at the top, it seems to run freely, but I noticed that the pin must be rotating because the cotter pin has scored the mast head fitting. I'm planning on cleaning the luff track. Should I use a de-greaser like carb cleaner, WD 40 or something else? Should I clean the slugs also? Again, with what? The boat is about to be launched, I need to remedy this problem quickly, while the mast is down. Please help!
Thanks,
Leo |
Leo Zimmermann
Chocowinity NC
Boat Name:
Model/Year: Catalina 30/1989
Hull No. 5490
Hailing Port: Chocowinity NC |
10/06/2020 6:09 PM Pacific Time
I just bought a 1989 Cat 30 MK II, hull 5490. I have a fully battened North Main. The main is very, very hard to raise. The previous owner had several cans of "Blaster Dry Lube" with Teflon on board. Is this part of the solution, or part of the problem? The mast is down at the moment. I checked the sheave at the top, it seems to run freely, but I noticed that the pin must be rotating because the cotter pin has scored the mast head fitting. I'm planning on cleaning the luff track. Should I use a de-greaser like carb cleaner, WD 40 or something else? Should I clean the slugs also? Again, with what? The boat is about to be launched, I need to remedy this problem quickly, while the mast is down. Please help!
Thanks,
Leo |
