Aaron M Benham
33a Loomis Hights
Boat Name: Tidely-Idley: The never ending project
Model/Year: 1978 C22
Hull No. 8070
Hailing Port: |
 03/25/2006 12:15 PM Pacific Time
I have a flat sided mast with what appear to be stainless steel spreader brackets. All seem to be in good shape. The only problem I see is that the spreader brackets are held to the mast by 4 sheet metal screws each instead of being through bolted. Does any one know the recommended sizes for the holes and bolts to though bolt them? Should I enlarge the hole to accept a slightly larger bolt? I have not yet removed them so I don't know what size the holes and screws are. As I have needed to use an impact driver to remove every metal fastener on this boat due to corrosion, I know that I will be destroying the screws to get them off. But it needs to be done before the problem takes care of itself. |
Glenn Warner
Jacksonville Florida
Boat Name: Goblin/JuJu
Model/Year: 1981/1972
Hull No. 10369/1222
Hailing Port: Jacksonville Florida |
03/26/2006 2:51 AM Pacific Time
Aaron, the brackets are usually through bolted with a compression sleeve through the cup that holds the spreaders. Have you taken the spreaders out to see if there is a bolt there? The sheet metal screws are adequate to hold the bracket from turning, probably overkill. The loads are all compression. Shine a light up through the mast, you should be able to see the through bolt.
Glenn |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
03/27/2006 7:22 AM Pacific Time
Aaron - As Glenn said the spreader brackets should already be thru bolted at the bottom of (inside) the spreader sockets. The screws only serve to maintain the position of the bracket on the mast, so that it does not rotate around the through bolt. When you start the replacement procedure, carefully remove the spreaders and look for the nut and head of the bolt.
Several problems may occur. First, the spreader may be corroded to the spreader bracket. In my case, the previous owner had epoxied the spreader inside the spreader bracket. I eventually had to cut the spreader off and chisel out the butt of the spreader to gain access to the nut.
Second , the bolt may be corroded to the compression sleeve. I had that problem. I removed both spreaders, laid the mast on its side with a block of wood under the bracket with the head of the bolt in it. I backed of the nut to the end of the bolt and soaked the bolt with a good penetrant. (I can't remember the name). I used another bolt and hammer free the bolt from the compression sleeve. The bracket on the bottom, protected the mast wall from bending outward as I pounded on the bolt to finally broke it free of the sleeve.
Lastly, try not to let the sleeve drop inside the mast. It can be repositioned with a long piece of hose or PVC, but that can be a real hassle. When I removed the bolt from the mast, I pushed it out gently with a long phillips screw driver. The screw driver kept the sleeve in place as I removed the bolt. When I began installation of the new bracket, I inserted the new bolt through the bracket and pushed it through the mast (pushing the screw driver ahead of it.) The combination held the compression sleeve in place.
In the new installation, the bolt and the ends of the spreaders are liberally coated with anti sieze compound AND I plan to be more careful about docking at docks with overhanging roofs. |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22 '76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
03/28/2006 8:11 AM Pacific Time
The compression sleeves that I have seen on boats, other than C22's, were the length of the width of the mast. Therefore when tightening up the the spreader brackets, there is no compression force on the mast. I haven't taken one apart on a C22, but I would hope that that is how it is done. The compression sleeve acts as a larger bearing surface around the bolt. The sleeve/bolt combination is 'loose' (if you would) in the mast, but the load of the shrouds will hold everything in place. At least that is what I have seen, for what it's worth,
Al Ge |
Aaron M Benham
33a Loomis Hights
Boat Name: Tidely-Idley: The never ending project
Model/Year: 1978 C22
Hull No. 8070
Hailing Port: |
03/29/2006 6:53 PM Pacific Time
Thanks. I knew that there was a compression sleeve inside between the brackets but I did not know that there was a bolt under there as well. On the outside it appears as though the sheet metal screws are holding the things on and in my experience, sheet metal screws only work the first time they are inserted. Especially in aluminum and especially after they have been whacked out with an impact driver. But I'm getting ahead of myself here. Taking the mast apart is a fun side project compaired to stripping off all 5000 layres of blue and green bottom pain (the green ISN"T paint). I can't even think of starting any other boat projects until I get that one finished. I still may replace the screws with bolts for better holding and easier removal. |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
03/29/2006 11:38 PM Pacific Time
"I still may replace the screws with bolts for better holding and easier removal."
Aaron - Wrong on both counts. The screws don't "hold" anything except to keep the bracket from turning on the bolt. They are in shear only.
A sheet metal is a lot easier to remove than a machine screw, especially if there is ANY galvanic corrosion.
Stick with the sheet metal screws. If you are concerned about them backing out, add a little Locktite to each one. |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
03/29/2006 11:46 PM Pacific Time
Al - On the Catalina 22 the compression sleeve is the width of the INSIDE of the mast. When the through bolt is tightened, the inside faces of the brackets are pressed against the outside of the mast, however they are kept from compressing the walls of the mast by the edge of the sleeve around the bolt. The sleeve is a tight fit around the bolt and subject to galvanic corrosion between the aluminum sleeve and the stainless bolt. At least that was the story on my 1978 model. |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22 '76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
03/30/2006 5:03 AM Pacific Time
Dick- I can't believe that the compression sleeve as you describe is the designed system. It is just too difficult to put together as you have said, it takes fishing the sleeve up into the mast. I could be wrong, but I think that Frank Bulter would have followed the normal design/building techniques, whether the masts got built that way may be another story. But if I were replacing them I would sure not fish the sleeve up the mast when a larger hole and longer sleeve, which is easier to measure for the correct length to keep the mast from compressing, is just as good if not better because of the larger bearing area.
For what it's worth, Al Ge |
Aaron M Benham
33a Loomis Hights
Boat Name: Tidely-Idley: The never ending project
Model/Year: 1978 C22
Hull No. 8070
Hailing Port: |
04/02/2006 12:35 PM Pacific Time
I have not taken the thing apart yet and I assumed that it was constructed in the usual way with the comprssion sleeve being just that and not a conduit for a bolt. Most of the masts I have seen are constructed in the way that Al describes. with the screws on the outside (usually thru bolts) holding them on and the compression sleeve sliding through a hole that is as large as its O.D..
As for the loads on the spreader brackets just being compression loads, that is NOT true. Remember that the lower shrouds also attach to the brackets so you also have considerable loading that results from that. The loads on the shrouds and hence the spreader brackets to which they attach are subject to some very heavy stresses as the mast whips around and the cost of a failure can be considerable. Doesn't seem worth the cost of the of the whole rig and the safety of the people standing under it to as compaired to the cost of two stainless steel bolts and 5 minutes with a drill press. But I'll let you all know what I find under there when I finally take it apart. |
Aaron M Benham
33a Loomis Hights
Boat Name: Tidely-Idley: The never ending project
Model/Year: 1978 C22
Hull No. 8070
Hailing Port: |
04/02/2006 12:35 PM Pacific Time
I have not taken the thing apart yet and I assumed that it was constructed in the usual way with the comprssion sleeve being just that and not a conduit for a bolt. Most of the masts I have seen are constructed in the way that Al describes. with the screws on the outside (usually thru bolts) holding them on and the compression sleeve sliding through a hole that is as large as its O.D..
As for the loads on the spreader brackets just being compression loads, that is NOT true. Remember that the lower shrouds also attach to the brackets so you also have considerable loading that results from that. The loads on the shrouds and hence the spreader brackets to which they attach are subject to some very heavy stresses as the mast whips around and the cost of a failure can be considerable. Doesn't seem worth the cost of the of the whole rig and the safety of the people standing under it to as compaired to the cost of two stainless steel bolts and 5 minutes with a drill press. But I'll let you all know what I find under there when I finally take it apart. |
Aaron M Benham
33a Loomis Hights
Boat Name: Tidely-Idley: The never ending project
Model/Year: 1978 C22
Hull No. 8070
Hailing Port: |
04/03/2006 12:25 PM Pacific Time
Well, curiosity got the best of me and I took the thing apart last night. Dick is correct in his description of how the compression sleeve fits inside of the mast. My only question: WHAT WERE THEY THINKING? and how did they get it into position in the first place? Thank you very much Dick for giving me a heads up on this annoying design. I would simply have pulled the bolt out otherwise and let the sleeve roll down the mast. I then would have wrapped the mast around a tree in the frustration of trying to get it back into postion. As for the loads on the bracket, I remembered that there is only a single bolt holding the uppers in place so the bolt plus 4 screws should be more than adequate for the lowers. For simplicity sake, I guess I will be just replacing the fasteners without changing the design.
Thanks again Dick. |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
04/03/2006 8:51 PM Pacific Time
Hi Aaron - It is nice to be right once in a while.(blind dog and the bone and all that) Had it not be for the gazebo roof on the end of the dock I was tying up to, I would not have the first hand experience with the brackets. Good luck with the spreader bracket replacement. |
Aaron M Benham
33a Loomis Hights
Boat Name: Tidely-Idley: The never ending project
Model/Year: 1978 C22
Hull No. 8070
Hailing Port: |
04/04/2006 6:07 PM Pacific Time
Thanks again Dick and wish me luck on this whole damn boat project. As I said above, I'm currently stripping the bottom to see exactly how many of the P.O's repairs I'm going to have to grind out and redo. All so far are just surface damage that was patched with large sheets of fiberglass cloth and this brown stuff. But as the paint comes off I'm finding blisters. If this boat had not been free, I would feel I'd been ripped off. Fourtunatly, I could still get more for it than I've paid. (dollars only). The mast is in great shape with almost no corrosion. Screws and bolts came out with a screwdriver. I didn't need an impact driver on any of them. This was a suprise since I had to drill all of the screws out of the rudder casting after breaking the tip of my impact driver trying to get them out. A long way to go before this boat sees water other than the rain on the deck. |
Bayard Gross
Greenwich, CT
Boat Name: Baby Blue
Model/Year: 1981
Hull No. 9911
Hailing Port: Greenwich, CT |
04/12/2006 7:59 PM Pacific Time
Aron:
I replaced those lousy sheet metal screws on the top of the spreader brackets on my flat sided mast with no. 10 screws. The crews enter from the starboard side, go through the mast, and then have nylon insert lock nuts holding them onto the port bracket. I found four inch no. 10 screws at West Marine and cut them down after I inserted them through the mast and put on the nuts.
Those sheet metal screws will no longer hold after one removes them, so through bolting is necessary.
Note that the stainless steel spreader bracket upgrade for the oval mast has a through bolted bolt on the upper side of the bracket (as well as the through bolt in the middle with a compression tube) so this idea of through bolting the screws on the upper screws of the flat sided mast bracket should be just fine and making everything more secure.
|
Erv Zimmerman
Anchor Bay Shores, Michigan
Boat Name: Adventuring
Model/Year: 1973
Hull No. 1787
Hailing Port: Anchor Bay, Lake St. Clair |
04/13/2006 12:36 AM Pacific Time
There are some drawings of the upgrade bracket installation at:
http://www.fleet130.org/technotes/mast/Spreaders/index.htm |
