Christopher Dube
Mansfield Texas
Boat Name: Gypsey Girl
Model/Year: C-22 1977
Hull No.
Hailing Port: Joe Pool Lake |
 06/26/2006 7:39 AM Pacific Time
Yestarday, We were cruising along nicely and a strong gust healed us a good bit. I am just curious how forgiving this little boat is. Also I would like to know, the "no no's." Ive sailed years ago, and I am kinda new to it again. Anyway, any thoughts would be nice. Thanks. Chris. |
Michael Smalter
Webster, NY
Boat Name: Marrakesh
Model/Year: 1986
Hull No. 13645
Hailing Port: Rochester, NY |
06/26/2006 5:58 PM Pacific Time
C22's are tough little boats. I've been knocked down twice on mine, and was standing on the vertical part of the cockpit seat across from me. Once the boat heels that much, you lose the wind and the boats comes back to vertical. I've heard that in wavy conditions, you can get water into the cockpit/cabin when it heels that much, but I never experienced that problem. If in doubt, put the hatch boards in.
The only No-No with the boat is don't back fast without your hand on the tiller. The rudder is not balanced, and will flip hard over to port or starboard when backing if you don't hold the tiller. |
Christopher Dube
Mansfield Texas
Boat Name: Gypsey Girl
Model/Year: C-22 1977
Hull No.
Hailing Port: Joe Pool Lake |
06/26/2006 6:20 PM Pacific Time
Thanks Michael. I know this was a stupid question, but I feel better that I asked. I figured that would be the case. the lake I am sailing on has these spots that create gusting areas. I found them yesterday. I will be on the lookout for them in the future. We had the windows awash for a few seconds there. It was kinda fun, but Im glad the wife was not with us. Anyway, Thanks. Chris..... |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
06/27/2006 5:46 AM Pacific Time
Hi Chris - I second what Michael said. We sailed most of a race with the windows submerged. We had a reefed main and a small jib and were still over powered upwind and reaching. On another occasion, I have had the spreadtip in the water. The gusts held us down for seconds even though the sheets were released. That time, we had water over the cockpit coaming and the starboard sheet winch was under water. When the gust passed she came back up and shook herself off. We started sailing again. We had about 6 inches of water in the cockpit. (With the stock forward drains, it took forever to drain.)
Several lessons. ALWAYS KEEP THE LAZERETTE HATCHES DOGGED WHEN NOT USING THEM. A few weeks ago we had a Catalina 22 sink within 30 seconds in about 10 ft of water when she broached and one of the lazerette hatched flipped one and the boat filled quickly through the very large hole. She would have been lost, if the incident had occurred offshore instead of in the river.
SERIOUSLY CONSIDER THE TRANSOM DRAIN KIT SOLD BY OUR HOST. Should you take water over the side, it will drain quickly. The forward drains are inadequate to handle a lot of water in a short time.
KEEP A WEATHER EYE ON THE WATER. If you are wearing polarized sun glasses you can usually see the gust coming before it hits. Ease the sheets or steer up to windward. |
Greg Guenther
Belleville, IL
Boat Name: Magnificat
Model/Year: 1970
Hull No. 473
Hailing Port: Belleville, IL |
06/27/2006 6:10 AM Pacific Time
Holy Cow Dick!
I didn't even think about the Lazerette hatches. Thanks for the insight. I normally unlatch them when out in the boat. I will have to re-think my latches.
Greg |
Jan P.
Grapevine, TX
Boat Name: Being Time
Model/Year: 1974 C22 Poptop/swing keel
Hull No. 4244
Hailing Port: Grapevine |
06/27/2006 6:21 AM Pacific Time
The only time I've been capsized was on a spinnaker run racing when a microburst screamed down the lake and took us over.
When racing genoa we've not capsized, but have been broached where my high side became the low side.
I've survived both incidents with a healthy respect for the boats that we sail on and the wind that drives them (I ended up in the water and sucked under the boats both times). Wear a lifejacket at all times - especially when the wind is up like that.
|
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22 '76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
06/27/2006 8:53 AM Pacific Time
When I got my first C22 we were rounding the leeward mark and starting up wind, the main was in a man was working on the Genny, and my son was tailing from inside the hatch. We were hit with a gust and the wincher was up to his elbows in green water. I yelled EASE THE MAIN, EASE THE MAIN. My son calmy said,"It's in your hand Dad". My 35' boat had the mainsheet and traveler controls on each side of the compaion way hatch, and I wasn't used to having it under my control. But as stated above, she came up and we didn't even lose a jplace with the other boats around us.
Al Ge |
Lynn Buchanan
Nevada City, CA
Boat Name: SAILYNN
Model/Year: SWING 1984
Hull No. 11994
Hailing Port: SCOTTS FLAT LAKE, CA |
06/27/2006 11:50 AM Pacific Time
Greg, your profile says your hull number is 4312 and your year boat is 1970. Are you sure? Did you make a typo on your profile? I have a 1973 and the hull number is 2431 per the CY id tag and registration. Just curious. |
Christopher Dube
Mansfield Texas
Boat Name: Gypsey Girl
Model/Year: C-22 1977
Hull No.
Hailing Port: Joe Pool Lake |
06/27/2006 3:20 PM Pacific Time
Thanks Dick for the insight. Im putting new seals on the Laz hatches. Polarized glasses are comeing soon. We have been haveing a great time fixing and sailing this great boat . Hey "Al Gearing" The engine we bought from ya, runs like a top. We are in the process of restoring the cover to new condition. All great fun. We already feel like family on this great sight !!!!!! Chris..... |
Tim Florek
Neenah, Wisconsin
Boat Name: Love n Luck
Model/Year: C22 1981
Hull No. 10301
Hailing Port: Neenah |
07/03/2006 6:41 PM Pacific Time
Let me ask a follow up for this question. For those racers or cruisers that act like racers. How many degrees can a C-22 heel when in the groove and pushing speed comfortably. There are many errors but would like everyone's opinion. |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
07/03/2006 11:26 PM Pacific Time
The boat goes fastest when sailed relatively flat. I would say try to keep the heel under 10-15 degrees. Any more and you are increasing the wetted surface of the hull (more drag) and causing the hull to round up as you get more lift from the low side of the hull. |
Lynn Buchanan
Nevada City, CA
Boat Name: SAILYNN
Model/Year: SWING 1984
Hull No. 11994
Hailing Port: SCOTTS FLAT LAKE, CA |
07/04/2006 9:27 PM Pacific Time
I race and cruise and would say 15 tops before you lose speed and pointing ability for the reasons earlier stated. I often see boats racing ahead of me heel excessively and start slipping sideways and then I can gain on them if I lower the traveler and ease the main, or scallop depending on the gusts. I have two artificial knees so it's hard for me to get to the high side quickly, so I try to keep the boat on a less than 15 degree heel. Sometimes I don't move as fast and my weight on the wrong side lets me wash my hair! |
Joe DiMarino
Mersville, MD
Boat Name:
Model/Year: 22/1973
Hull No. 2987
Hailing Port: Mattowoman Creek, MD |
07/06/2006 4:32 AM Pacific Time
That was an interesting and informative discussion. Along the same lines I am wondering about actualy wind speeds when some of these capsizes and close to capsize events happen. I sail on the Potomac river in an area with a fairly long fetch. The winds can be a consistent 20 knots. The main sail on my boat did not have reef points. Can something be done or do I have to look for a new sail.
Joe |
William Bell
Pt. Orange, FL
Boat Name: Phoenix
Model/Year: 1987 Catalina 22
Hull No. #13784
Hailing Port: Pt. Orange,FL |
07/07/2006 6:19 AM Pacific Time
Take the sail to a loft. They can put in reef points for you. It is a lot cheaper than buying a new sail.
Good luck --- and happy sailing.
--Bill |
Jimmy Lotufo
New Jersey
Boat Name: brisey_h
Model/Year: C-22 1984
Hull No. 12275
Hailing Port: Alki Beach |
07/07/2006 12:04 PM Pacific Time
these are awesome observations, and thanks to all for the great info. I think the heel should be no more than 15 deg. too.
Best sailing to all...... |
Lynn Buchanan
Nevada City, CA
Boat Name: SAILYNN
Model/Year: SWING 1984
Hull No. 11994
Hailing Port: SCOTTS FLAT LAKE, CA |
07/08/2006 11:25 PM Pacific Time
Joe and anyone else needing to add a reef for C22 mainsail. Sailrite Enterprises sells a sewing kit for adding reefs. Everything is there and it's fairly cheap, or you could do your own. Take 6 pieces of 1 inch webbing and fold them in half to make enough for a 1/2 inch loop. Sew the folded pieces of webbing onto the sail where you want your reef points, three points on each side of the sail evenly spaced horizontally. A stiched box with a X inside it is all you need to sew. When you reef, there shouldn't be tension on the reef points. It is used to secure a line that bunches up the excess sail when reefed. Now tie a small piece of 1/4 inch line to the loops you created with the webbing. You will need two grommets one each for the luff and leech edge of the sail. This area needs to be re-inforced, before installing the gromments. If you don't want to cut up an old sail for reinforcement, use sail repair tape, or better yet, insignia cloth. Cut 12 pieces of 2 inch tape about 6-8 inches long for each side of the sail luff and leech. Put them onto the sail in a fan shape on both sides of the luff and leech, with the widest part of the fan pattern towards the center of your sail and with three layers on each side being at the point where you will put the grommet so it is in line with the reef points. Stich several rows across this fan shape to secure the extra materiel to the sail. If your sewing machine needle gets gummy, clean it with alcohol. Near the luff and leech edge, you now have seven layers of fabric to punch a hole into and install a grommet. |
Greg Guenther
Belleville, IL
Boat Name: Magnificat
Model/Year: 1970
Hull No. 473
Hailing Port: Belleville, IL |
07/10/2006 6:06 AM Pacific Time
Hi Lynn,
I just thought about the hull number this weekend. I took the number off of the registration card from the state when I first got the boat. My sail number is 374 and the number on the transom plate is 374. I could not find a four digit "hull number" anywhere. I admit to being somewhat confused.
Greg |
Greg Nelson
Rose Haven, MD/Oro Valley,AZ
Boat Name: SOBB TOO
Model/Year: 1975/6
Hull No. 5953
Hailing Port: Deale, MD |
07/10/2006 7:48 AM Pacific Time
I think the racers covet your boat!!! They love those three digit numbers. Look on the plate and on the starboard side on the outside of the stearn for the complete CTY numbers. Someone on this site can translate it for you or you can go to the national site for a key. |
Erv Zimmerman
Anchor Bay Shores, Michigan
Boat Name: Adventuring
Model/Year: 1973
Hull No. 1787
Hailing Port: Anchor Bay, Lake St. Clair |
07/10/2006 9:39 AM Pacific Time
The Hull Identification Number (HIN) is scribed into the hull on starboard side of the stern just below the rubrail. If the boat was built in 1970 and is #374, there, there won't be an HIN since they didn't come into use until November 1, 1972 .
For more information visit: http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/hin.html |
Lynn Buchanan
Nevada City, CA
Boat Name: SAILYNN
Model/Year: SWING 1984
Hull No. 11994
Hailing Port: SCOTTS FLAT LAKE, CA |
07/10/2006 2:49 PM Pacific Time
Based on the boat year and the transom plate, I would say your hull number is #374 which makes it more valuable to the right person (a racer wanting a lighter, earlier model boat). |
Greg Guenther
Belleville, IL
Boat Name: Magnificat
Model/Year: 1970
Hull No. 473
Hailing Port: Belleville, IL |
07/11/2006 4:33 AM Pacific Time
Thanks for the info,
I signed up for the races at Carlyle lake this summer. I am a farmer so I only made one so far but the only exciting part was the start. I was the only C22 and once we crossed the starting line, everyone else ran away from me like I was sitting still. It got real boring real quick. I am going to see if there are any other C22 owners around who are interested in racing so at least there will be some boats to compete against.
This poor thing was in terrible shape when I got her 3 years ago. I paid $2k for her and have easily put another $3.5K into it. Now I still need a new suite of sails.
No regrets though.
Thanks for all of the input.
Greg |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22 '76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
07/11/2006 5:11 AM Pacific Time
Take heart Greg, if you're sailing PHRF that rating of 270 sec/mile is gift. That was established when the boat first came out, it fit the PHRF rules of a galley, life lines, and an encloed head. Since then the class has eliminated all these feature as necessary, so with an inboard track for the Genny, it is hard not get a trophy. You don't have to be first to finish, just save your time on the clock. This will make you work the whole race and it is worth it.
Good luck,
Al Ge |
Greg Guenther
Belleville, IL
Boat Name: Magnificat
Model/Year: 1970
Hull No. 473
Hailing Port: Belleville, IL |
07/12/2006 6:55 AM Pacific Time
Thanks Al,
I find the biggest challenge is finding the time to get out on my boat. The spring series is almost over but fall is coming. I raced with a friend several seasons about 5 years ago. He had a Hunter 35 keelboat. We always lost but I found that the effort to drive the boat as fast as possible was a challenge in itself and makes for good skills even in cruising.
Greg |
Greg Guenther
Belleville, IL
Boat Name: Magnificat
Model/Year: 1970
Hull No. 473
Hailing Port: Belleville, IL |
07/12/2006 6:58 AM Pacific Time
Thanks Greg, I looked at the plate and it does say 374 for the hull number. I wonder where the PO got the four digit number? It probably isn't worth the effort to make the change with the state, Illinois can get really grumpy about that stuff.
Greg G. |
George
Georgetown, SC
Boat Name: Blu Notes
Model/Year: 1981 C-22
Hull No.
Hailing Port: Georgetown, SC |
11/11/2007 8:41 PM Pacific Time
When I moved up to a hobiecat (my first real boat), my "mentor" was a "old school" sailor and our first lesson was in HOW to capsize and right the boat. Very valuable information because I used it on my C-22 just yesterday.
In the interest of passing on my experience to everybody, my goal is to help others to learn. A life might be saved. We were heading up with a 150 genoa and the main at full length (running a cunningham). The keel was down but not locked. The lockers were closed, but not locked, and we were running the motor as I was trying to make for the harbor ASAP to get my friend back on the dock. Well the whole thing started when we decided (ok, I was the skipper so I'll take the hit on this one) to see if we could reduce drag and go faster with the keel up. BIG MISTAKE, actually the biggest of the three factors involved.
When she went hard over, it happened so fast. The mast tip was in the water and the starbord locker was full open taking on water, the cabin was taking water and my friend had disappeared, along with the marine radio. The boat DID NOT automatically right it's self and was going down. As my buddy was in the 57 degree water yelling that he was safe, he swam to the port side to put some weight on the keel, I cranked the tension off it and the boat slowly rolled back up but was listing to starboard at least 5 degrees. I got him back on and we bailed for half an hour as the bilge pump had also went over. We got it back to the dock and later back on the trailer. Now there is much work to do.
Lessons learned? First, although I usually sail with the keel down, it is never locked. Well, this is the reason the designers say to lock it. I do not think it would have went over if it would have been down and locked. Many have said, "oh, I run it lose because if I hit something the keel will give way and the boat will not get structural damage" .... phooey. If you hit something hard, that keel will give unless you have tightened it aka Superman strength.
Second, close BOTH locker hasps and just put something i the latch to secure it, perhaps the locks without closing them. Better yet, put some new thin rubber strips under the locker tops that will seal up when the lockers are closed. This is how the water got in. A HUGE amount of water in a short time. This spring my first mod is going to be some aft cockpit drains.
Thirdly .... consider the effects of ALL other factors. The extra motor thrust surely assisted in the capsize. Running that mainsail flat with the cunningham tight left NO leeway for the sail to spill air when the gust hit. Also, if you use a handheld radio, mount a holding brachet or secure it somewhere.
I am thankful I was sailing with an experienced sailor. Had my wife been with me yesterday .... well, that's the stuff of nightmares. I am resolved to never forget this "lesson" and of course to continue in my love of sailing and the C-22. |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22/'76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
11/12/2007 8:14 AM Pacific Time
Yes, a C22 will capsize, or first broach, I did it in 501, we rounded the weather mark and was reaching to the off set mark. We raised the spinnaker with thepole against the headstay the main was eased but not the genoa; that wasw the down fall. I was surprised that I could not get the boat to turn down wind with the main out and a spinnaker pulling the bow around the Genny would not let us down. the man on the foredeck slipped into the water, I found myself trying to do chinups on the tiller, which of course put me into the mainsail, swimming while still dry, I pickuped the floating winch handle, and scrambled back aboard as the boat righted itself. Two other crew did not even get their feet wet. But there have been boats that have turned turtle and the keel falls back into the well and when the boat rights it self, or is helped, it will fill with water and sink.
I don't lock the keel down, because it disturbs the grease seal around the locking bolt and it will leak water.
I think that most racers do not lock their keels, I'm not sure.
For what it's worth,
Al Ge |
Lee Scott
Birmingham, AL
Boat Name: Shoot the Breeze
Model/Year: C22 - 1981
Hull No. 10212
Hailing Port: Lay Lake |
11/13/2007 5:57 AM Pacific Time
Al, whatever happened to 501? I've got one of her old mainsails on my boat. It's a North sail, a bit worn, but still hanging in there. It's got some measurement dates on it from sometime around '96, I think. |
George
Georgetown, SC
Boat Name: Blu Notes
Model/Year: 1981 C-22
Hull No.
Hailing Port: Georgetown, SC |
11/15/2007 5:21 AM Pacific Time
Hi Al. As far as the grease seal goes, what do we do in order to keep it working properly? I just put some grease on the screw threads every once in a while. |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22/'76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
11/16/2007 10:50 AM Pacific Time
Lee, I thought I answered you but I don't see it. I sold it to Gary Paterson in the Houston area.
George, I just put a big fillet of grease around the locking bolt and just don't turn it.
For what it's worth,
Al Ge |
