Kim Walker
Azle, Texas
Boat Name: Nutshell
Model/Year: C22/1982
Hull No. 10901
Hailing Port: Eagle Mountain Lake, Fort Worth, Texas |
 02/27/2004 7:58 PM Pacific Time
My keel lock down bolt is rusted in the unlocked position. I really would like to get this unstuck, preferably without hauling the boat. I have been spraying it with Kroil regularly for about 6 months without any improvement. It won't move at all. Does anyone have any helpful tips? I have been afraid to use heat, as I don't want to damage the fiberglass. If I have to pull the boat, what technique would be the best bet?
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Mike Bracket
Clinton Twp, MI
Boat Name: Gunsmoke
Model/Year: 1979
Hull No. 9150
Hailing Port: Lake St Clair MI |
02/28/2004 5:14 AM Pacific Time
If you havent got the thing released by now, you will likely have to haul the boat. But thats the easy part. Dropping the keel and removing the bolt and anchor strap is the hard part!!. As long as the keel will raise and lower, forget about the locking bolt and just go sailing.
If the keel wont go up and down, you will have to do the complete repair. |
Austin Cooley
Honeoye Falls, NY
Boat Name: Wings of the Morning
Model/Year: Catalina 22, 1983
Hull No. 11602
Hailing Port: Keuka Lake, Branchport, NY |
02/28/2004 7:50 AM Pacific Time
Don't worry about not being able to lock the keel, at least for most sailing. Be patient and start applying penetating oil. WD-40 is good for a lot of things, but it isn't as good a penetrating oil as liquid wrench, or even better, a product called Liquid Torch made by Castle Chemical Co. Tap gently every now and then and be patient. |
Noah Oden
Dana Point, CA
Boat Name: Noah's Ark
Model/Year: 1976 C22
Hull No. 6588
Hailing Port: Dana Point, CA |
02/28/2004 8:40 AM Pacific Time
If it is like mine was, the bolt is bent. I could only turn mine one turn either way. Once I had the boat out of the water I could see right away that the bolt was bent. Too many raisings and lowerings without backing off the lock down bolt I guess.
I was replacing the keel so access was easy. It seemed that you might be able to saw the bolt with the keel on the boat. You might be able to saw it from the inside and drill out the remaining bolt. Do it out of the water though.
Good luck! |
Bob Keim
Nashville
Boat Name: Pursuit
Model/Year: C22/1976
Hull No.
Hailing Port: Nashville |
02/28/2004 10:12 AM Pacific Time
PB Blaster for unsticking parts! I love that stuff. How does it compare to Liquid Torch, Austin? |
Chuck Bennett
Dothan, Alabama
Boat Name: Mya Scape
Model/Year: C-22SK 1982
Hull No. 10592
Hailing Port: Bagby Marina, Lake Eufaula, Ft. Gaines, Georgia |
02/28/2004 5:23 PM Pacific Time
I agree, PB Blaster is the best on the market, I'm an Industrial maintenance supervisor and have purchased all kinds of penetrating lubes and we all ways end up using the PB Blaster. |
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
02/29/2004 3:09 AM Pacific Time
Thanks for all the help. I will try the PB Blaster.
I agree that in general one could sail forever and never give a second thought to locking the keel. However, the wife and I enjoy sailing in 15 to 25 mph winds holding the boat at 30 to 40 degrees of heel. The other day a puff hit us that just had the rail in the water for maybe 5 seconds or so and a couple of seconds after the boat settled back to 30 deg, I was pretty sure I heard the keel drop back down against the inside of the keel trunk. I do understand the consequences of having the keel retract in this situation, so I am going to hold back on the more radical sailing untill I get this fixed. I need to haul the boat anyway to check the keel hanger bolts.
Assuming the worst on the rust buildup, what parts and tools should I purchase and have on hand before hauling the boat?
Thanks again, |
Austin Cooley
Honeoye Falls, NY
Boat Name: Wings of the Morning
Model/Year: Catalina 22, 1983
Hull No. 11602
Hailing Port: Keuka Lake, Branchport, NY |
03/01/2004 11:41 AM Pacific Time
I've never heard of PB Blaster but I'll look for it at the usual stores that carry that sort of stuff.
Austin Cooley |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
03/01/2004 3:20 PM Pacific Time
I think just about any auto parts store stocks it. I got mine from a little place down the street. Sorry I can't remember the name of it. |
Richard Bernstein
Lake Champlain, Vermont
Boat Name: Trillium
Model/Year: C22 1986
Hull No. 14130
Hailing Port: Charlotte, Vermont |
03/01/2004 5:19 PM Pacific Time
I was in a similar position over the summer. I managed to get the lock down bolt unstuck with liquid wrench. I also took a sparkplug socket wrench to a machine shop and had them saw a groove across it to fit over the T handle of the bolt and used the socket and ratchet handle to work the bolt back and forth gradually. Took a couple weeks. Interestingly, I found that part of the problem was that the p.o. had dropped the keep down onto the bolt when the latter was screwed all the way in. Retracting the keel made it easier to work the bolt. I'm certain it's bent but haven't tried to back it all the way out and replace it yet.
Richard Bernstein
Charlotte Vt
1986 C22 #14130 |
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03/07/2004 9:40 AM Pacific Time
i did similar t slot socket. in addition i used an impact air wrench to go forward and back several times. t bolt was rust welded in a 1/4 inch of thread. i was able to remove t bolt without ripping out fibeglass. interesting nut is steel, bolt is stainless. |
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03/07/2004 10:22 AM Pacific Time
Although I hadn't seriously considered using an impact wrench, I had wondered about how much torque the nut assembly could tolerate without damaging the fiberglass. Can anyone tell me how the nutplate for the lockdown bolt is secured to the 'glass? Is the nut mounted to a larger piece of steel?
Thanks, |
Mike Bracket
Clinton Twp, MI
Boat Name: Gunsmoke
Model/Year: 1979
Hull No. 9150
Hailing Port: Lake St Clair MI |
03/08/2004 7:10 PM Pacific Time
Interesting you should mention that....
Yes the nut is welded to a stainless strap about 1.25" wide. It extends forward of the nut about 4 inches and goes aft to the back end of the trunk and wraps around the aft end about 1 inch.
The wall of the trunk is maybe 3/8 plywood with a little bit of glass and epoxy over it.
If the nut or bolt is frozen/bent, it might be easier to grind out the strap and replace it.
On my boat, I was able to grind out he strap with a 60 grit disk in a drill. Once the strap was pried out, I finished grinding it as flat as possible and then epoxied in a new one. Rough it up on a grinder first to give the epoxy something to bond to. a bolt from the bottomside threaded into the nut holds one end tight to the trunk. A large C clamp on the aft end holds it until the epoxy sets. About 6 layers of glass tape and woven roving epoxied down over the metal strap and it is much better than new.
The hardest part is working upside down in that compartment.
Good Luck |
Kalman Peleg
Haifa, Isreal
Boat Name: BAR GAL
Model/Year: 1994
Hull No. 13937
Hailing Port: Haifa |
04/06/2004 3:46 AM Pacific Time
It seems that my keel lock down bolt has been turned in too much by the previous owner. This pried out the wall of the keel trunk and a crack formed about parallel to the metal strip to which the nut is connected. Water is coming in through this crack when the boat heels.
Some part of the metal strap near the nut is exposed but the bolt can be turned about 3/4 of a turn in and out when the keel is down.
When the keel is up I could turn it in and out 2 -3 turns but I am afraid to turn it too much.
If anybody had a similar problem I would appreciate some advise how to fix the crack and reinforce the trunk wall.
Also, how many turns should the T-handle of the lock down bolt be normally turned from the lock to the unlock position? One turn? Half a turn?
How is the bolt connected to the keel locking starp that rubs agains the keel?
Can I unscrew the bolt and remove it completely?
Thanks for your help.
Kalman |
Jim Witt
Winters, CA
Boat Name: Sea Ya
Model/Year: Cat 22 ' 1974
Hull No.
Hailing Port: Lake Berryessa |
05/19/2004 12:39 PM Pacific Time
I have the same problem on my 1974 Cat 22'. I sail periodically on San Francisco Bay and have also experienced the keel slamming down, mostly from the wave action while heeling over. I discovered that the hole in the keel is stripped and by trying to tighten the bolt, the strap has now pulled away causing a leak. Can the stripped bolt hole in the keel be fixed? I think I have an idea now what to do to fix the strap. |
Michael Smalter
Webster, NY
Boat Name: Marrakesh
Model/Year: 1986
Hull No. 13645
Hailing Port: Rochester, NY |
05/20/2004 3:31 AM Pacific Time
The keel is not supposed to have a hole in it for the lockdown bolt. I have an indentation, but it is from wear . The only nut/threads are in the keel housing. I believe the thread pitch on the keel lockdown bolt is 16, so it takes 16 turns to move the bolt forward 1 inch. One turn would move it 1/16 inch. I expect there is at least 1/4" clearance between the keel housing and the keel (that's why you need spacers and the new hanger brackets to keep the keel from moving around), so there should be no problem backing off the screw 4 turns from the tight position.
I wonder if the cracks/leaks are caused by side loading of the keel/over tightening, or whether the keel hit the extended bolt when it was lowered. The latter is how the keel bolt gets bent. |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
05/20/2004 5:18 AM Pacific Time
" I have an indentation, but it is from wear ."
I can't say exactly how many times, I have heard that statement regarding the curved slot in the head of a Catalina 22 keel, but I wish I had a dollar for each time.
Question: How does the end of a stainless bolt wear a groove in side of a huge piece of cast iron, when drill bits go dull trying to drill the stuff? This is especially true when most of the time, the end of the bolt is not even touching the keel.
My theory (and I have been wrong before) is that the groove was made during the keel casting process. Next time one of you drops your keel, look at the head and see if you have a groove in yours. |
Dave
West Bend, WI
Boat Name:
Model/Year: 1988 C22
Hull No. #14447
Hailing Port: Oshkosh, WI |
05/20/2004 7:26 AM Pacific Time
No groove in mine. There's no sign at all of the bolt ever touching the keel. The PO said he never lowered the keel and I don't lock it when I have it down.
Dave |
Michael Smalter
Webster, NY
Boat Name: Marrakesh
Model/Year: 1986
Hull No. 13645
Hailing Port: Rochester, NY |
05/20/2004 6:19 PM Pacific Time
Dick, why would Catalina mold a goove into the keel? It would have to be more expensive than a flat surface. If I have an 86 with a groove, and Dave's 88 doesn't have a groove, what does that tell you? |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
05/20/2004 8:30 PM Pacific Time
Michael - I don't know why. Can you explain how a bolt can wear a grove that is wider than the bolt in the side of the cast iron keel? Perhaps Catalina Yachts could explain the grooves. |
Dan Keagle
Alexandria, VA
Boat Name: North Light
Model/Year: 1984 Catalina 22
Hull No. 12552
Hailing Port: Alexandria, VA |
05/22/2004 7:30 PM Pacific Time
How about this for an explanation: banging the bottom with the keel lockdown bolt tight would wear a groove in the keel and then as the spacers wore and the keel wiggled back & forth that would wear the groove wider. |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
05/22/2004 8:53 PM Pacific Time
Nice try Don. I still wonder how a piece of stainless bolt can wear a groove in cast iron. I really do.. Do we have any metalurgists out there who can speak to the properties of cast iron and the ability of a squared off piece of stainless threaded rod carving its surface. |
Jim Johnstone
Austin, TX
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: Lake Travis, TX |
05/23/2004 6:50 PM Pacific Time
My 1981 cast iron swing keel had a groove in it. I removed it to refinish the keel. The groove was in the fairing material (like Bondo) that was used to fair the keel as it came from the factory. The only thing molded into the keel were the letters MEXICO, which became visible after I removed all the old fairing material.
The cast iron was scratched where the keel bolt was, but not grooved.
Jim |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
05/23/2004 7:55 PM Pacific Time
Jim - I think you are on to something. I could believe the coating could be grooved. |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22 '76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
05/24/2004 4:49 AM Pacific Time
Jim, I now have 6448 and am restoring it. I have considered 'fairing' the keel. When I first heard of 'fairing' I thought it was just filling and smoothing it. My first Cat22 had up to 1 inch deep rusty holes in it, and so I thought it was only to smooth it out. Also, I smoothed out the keel on 501. When I sold 501, Garry Peterson had a template with him and checked the shape and said it was not faired. Do I understand that people are grinding off the hard shell of the cast iron to make it more tear-drop shape? Does one also add some side material? I might do it while I'm working on all the other things, but it seems like a lot of work. Also, who id better at making sails for C22's, Bartlet or Gus? I'm going to have to have some new ones eventually, I've had both, but you beat me any way. Thanks, Al Ge |
Dick King
Melbourne, FL
Boat Name: Twilight Zone
Model/Year: Sport/2005
Hull No. 15546
Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL |
05/24/2004 8:28 AM Pacific Time
Al -There appears to be a wide variance in what is meant by fariring the keel. The Catalina One Design Rules state:
"Keels may be either retractable or fixed. In either case, they shall be as supplied by the manufacturer. They shall remain unmodified in composition, size and shape. Refinishing the surface of the keel shall not be considered a modification."
And "Covering the keel with fiberglass for the purpose of providing a protective coating is permitted if the
coating does not significantly change its size, shape or weight."
A definition of fair (v. t.) in my dictionary is "to adjust the form in accordance with a design or cause it to conform to a general form."
Fairing, then, involves more than mere resurfacing. It involves adjusting the form or modifying the shape of the keel. Adding or deleting material to make the keel fit a template of a defined foil shape should be a definite no no. I am only one voice, but to me doing anything but filling in voids and smoothing the surface of the keel is in violation of the rules. A lot of keels, especially in the early models were cast with asymetrical shapes and bows due to uneven cooling and other abnormalities. Some owners have seen fit to remedy these imperfections by fairing their keels. In accepting these changes in shape, it appears that measurers have turned a blind eye on the words "unmodified in composition, size and shape." However, since there appears to be no standard against which to measure what is or is not the "supplied by the manufacturer" (even Catalina Yachts cannot provide the drawings of the original lines for the keel) there is not a lot that can be done to remedy the problem.
So Al, within reason, fair away. |
Dick Reynolds
Lebanon, Oregon
Boat Name: Catnip
Model/Year: Swing Keel / 1974
Hull No. 4570
Hailing Port: Newport, Oregon |
05/24/2004 9:31 PM Pacific Time
However Dick, If you order the video from Catalina Direct they even give you a template of the keel shape as they visualize it. Given the varience in keels we hear about, who's to say what is correct? |
Jim Johnstone
Austin, TX
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: Lake Travis, TX |
05/25/2004 8:06 PM Pacific Time
Reply to Al Gearing's question on Fairing keel:
Al, I used the keel template supplied by Catalina Direct with their video to make it symmetric. The keel was a good resemblance of the template on one side and rather flat on the other side. I added epoxy filler material to the flat side to make the keel symmetric.
I added a little bit of the same material to the "good" side to fill in holes and take out imperfections. The rules state that you can add a limited amount of material to your keel. They do not prescribe the limits.
My interpretation of the limit is, you can't add so much material it ends up looking like a Capri 22 fin keel. It should still look like a Catalina 22 swing and weigh about the same.
What I did takes about 5 pounds of filler before sanding and forming so it is less than 1 % of the total weight of the keel by the time you are done. By filling, sanding and then applying a smooth finish coat you end up with a symmetrical keel that is low in drag. I believe this is worth while to do if you are a racer, and within the spirit of the rules.
Dale McCaffity is our class association measurer and if you are unsure of what is allowed, you should ask him. He is in Garland,Texas which is pretty close to you. He does respond to questions by E- mail and will give you his interpretation of a rule if you ask him.
Jim |
