Hull / Keel / Rudder / Tiller

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Author Rudder Question
Rick Winter
Salem, MA

Boat Name: I'm Knots

Model/Year: Catalina 22/1989

Hull No. 15011

Hailing Port: Salem, MA
06/27/2004 11:49 AM Pacific Time

My rudder just snapped in two in some high winds. THey actually were not that bad, but I salw that there was some rot in the wood. A 15 year old keel, I guess it is possible. My question is that as I have to purchase a new keel now, woudl it be better to get a spade or a kick up rudder. I had a spade rudder before, and do not have problem with shallow water. My boat is a 1989 22 wing keel.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Rick
Chip Ford
Marblehead, MA

Boat Name: Chip Ahoy

Model/Year: 1974-Swing Keel

Hull No. CTY032820374

Hailing Port: Marblehead, Mass.
06/28/2004 2:36 AM Pacific Time

Hey Rick, where in Salem do you keep I'm Knots, or do you trailer. Chip Ahoy is moored on the Marblehead side of the Harbor, off the Village St. dock.

I've got a kick-up rudder but only raise it when I'm done sailing and am back on my mooring just to keep the growth off. My bigger problem is keeping it down; sometimes it wants to work its was up from the fully down position. I just bought a new tightening handle from CD for this year, but don't know how much better that'll work until I launch ... supposedly later today.

Chip Ford --
Marblehead, Mass.
1974 C22 Swing Keel #3282 - "Chip Ahoy"
Chip Ahoy website: www.chipford.com

Dick King
Melbourne, FL

Boat Name: Twilight Zone

Model/Year: Sport/2005

Hull No. 15546

Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL
06/28/2004 7:10 AM Pacific Time

Rick - The kind of rudder you use, depends on how and where you sail the boat. If you plan to race the boat and are not concerned about shoal waters, by all means get a fixed rudder. It is far simpler and in some cases lighter than the kickup rudder. Chop mentioned having to kick his rudder up to prevent fouling. If you attach the tiller with a bolt and wing nut, you can remove the tiller and store the rudder in the cockpit when the boat is not sailing.

If you sail in thin water or want to be able to beach her on some deserted beach for a family picnic, go for the kickup. There are several ways to prevent the blade from kicking up when you don't want it to. Tightening the handle is usually not one of them.
Rick Winter
Salem, MA

Boat Name: I'm Knots

Model/Year: Catalina 22/1989

Hull No. 15011

Hailing Port: Salem, MA
06/28/2004 7:17 AM Pacific Time

Chip,

I am on the Marblehead side os Salem harbour as well, not too far off the village street dock. If you ever see a nut inflating a raft on the dock, it is me, as I don't want to pay for the launch service every time.

Based on what i have read about, I think that I will stick with the fixed rudder as opposed to the kick up as this is what origionally came with the boat. With the Wing keel, the only advantage woudl be to pull it up as to not have growth, but this is not something that some anti fouling paint could not fix.

Dick, Thanks for your great input as well.

Rick
Dave
West Bend, WI

Boat Name:

Model/Year: 1988 C22

Hull No. #14447

Hailing Port: Oshkosh, WI
06/28/2004 3:52 PM Pacific Time

Check out the replacement rudders online at the CatalinaOwners chandlery. They're much cheaper and are 100% resistant to waterlogging.
Chip Ford
Marblehead, MA

Boat Name: Chip Ahoy

Model/Year: 1974-Swing Keel

Hull No. CTY032820374

Hailing Port: Marblehead, Mass.
06/29/2004 6:29 AM Pacific Time

Rick, write me off-list. Maybe we can get together some time. My e-mail address is on my Chip Ahoy website (below) at the bottom of the home page, or just add < [email protected] > before the domain name < chipford.com >.

Chip Ford --
Marblehead, Mass.
1974 C22 Swing Keel #3282 - "Chip Ahoy"
Chip Ahoy website: www.chipford.com
David Devine
Bradford, MA

Boat Name: Advent

Model/Year: 1976

Hull No. 5812

Hailing Port: Chatham, MA
06/29/2004 7:37 AM Pacific Time

Finally got my C-22 in the water for the first time - who always says "Man I love that little boat"?

Dick, what are some of the methods to keep the rudder down that you alluded to?
Rick Winter
Salem, MA

Boat Name: I'm Knots

Model/Year: Catalina 22/1989

Hull No. 15011

Hailing Port: Salem, MA
06/29/2004 11:26 AM Pacific Time

Thanks to all that responded. I ended up purchasing a full blade and 2 new gungeons as one of mine was severly bent. Good exscuse for an upgrade I guess. As I had the other hardware, the cost was not as bad as I thought. Paid the extra $20 to have it shipped 3 days and will have it ready for the water this weekend. I'll let eveyone know.

Rick
Chip Ford
Marblehead, MA

Boat Name: Chip Ahoy

Model/Year: 1974-Swing Keel

Hull No. CTY032820374

Hailing Port: Marblehead, Mass.
06/30/2004 2:11 AM Pacific Time

Rick, I noticed another C-22 out by Chip Ahoy yesterday, white hull, maroon sail cover, roller furler. Is that by chance I'm Knots? (Last season there was one with a white hull, blue sail covers a bit further out.) Chip Ahoy has a red hull and it's moored just before the MidHarbor Marine launch barge/office with the flag pole in direct line from the Village St. dock. Met a guy on the dock pumping up his inflatible yesterday -- but he wasn't you.

Chip Ford --
Marblehead, Mass.
1974 C22 Swing Keel #3282 - "Chip Ahoy"
Chip Ahoy website: www.chipford.com
Tim Seifert


Boat Name: Mary's Joy

Model/Year:

Hull No. 8281

Hailing Port: Holyrood, Newfoundland
04/25/2005 4:44 PM Pacific Time

But you guys never answered the question -- how to keep the rudder from kicking up while sailing? It happens to me, and I don't fancy having to stand on the transom and kick the rudder back into place while sailing on the North Atlantic. I thought of installing some sort of bushing and pin to hold the rudder down.
ED VOYDA
Schaumburg, IL.

Boat Name: SEA FEVER

Model/Year: Catalina 22 1974

Hull No. 3771

Hailing Port: chicago
07/31/2005 2:33 PM Pacific Time

Hello and help! I've finally got my 22 in the water and used it for the third time yesterday. While sailing in a light air and choppy seas I noticed something not obvios on the first two outings. The rudder (kick up) blade is very loose between the alum. castings and seems to wobble back and forth in the chop. Is this normal? The castings are bolted tight. The kick up seems to raise fine but the wobble scared me enough to quit for the day. The locking disks have a gap between the casting and and the disk.
I don't remember this looseness when installing the rudder. The boat is a new (to me) 1974.
Does any one have an exploded view of all the pieces?
Thanks, Ed
Michael Smalter
Webster, NY

Boat Name: Marrakesh

Model/Year: 1986

Hull No. 13645

Hailing Port: Rochester, NY
07/31/2005 4:59 PM Pacific Time

I have a 1986, and had to replace the center bolt and retap the hole in the tightening handle because the threads had stripped. Is your rudder tightening handle as tight as it can go?

Also, the space between the casting and the locking disk might be because the round (nickel size) protrusion in the disk isn't aligned with a hole in the rudder housing.
Bayard Gross
Greenwich, CT

Boat Name: Baby Blue

Model/Year: 1981

Hull No. 9911

Hailing Port: Greenwich, CT
07/31/2005 7:58 PM Pacific Time

Rick:

I also have a standard rudder and keep my boat at a mooring.

However, I ship my rudder into my cabin whenever I finish sailing. The Catalina rudders are susceptible to water penetration and therefore damage especially along the forward edge where a crack can develop.

My boat is no. 9911 and built in 1981. This is a lot older than yours. Nevertheless, my rudder is still like new and it still even floats. It is still strong enough to bend the bottom pintle after hitting a rock, as I unfortunately just discovered. The inconvenience of shipping the rudder into the cabin is a heck of a lot better than losing much time and money replacing one’s rudder. Further, if one ships the rudder, one need not apply any drag inducing antifouling paint. Anything that makes a boat faster is always good.

So, do yourself a big favor. Ship your new rudder whenever you finish sailing. Your boat, time, and wallet will thank you for it.
Larry
Greenville, SC

Boat Name: Kemo Sabe

Model/Year: C-22 , 1973

Hull No. 2229

Hailing Port: www.keoweesailingclub.com
08/02/2005 8:34 AM Pacific Time

Ed,

I have owned 22's for a good while and all of the kick-up rudders I have owned had to be through-bolted to keep them from kicking up. I don't know if you can cinch down on the lock down bolt hard enough to keep it from kicking-up in heavy air. I know mine wouldn't . The problem in heavy sailing with that rudder kicked back so far is that there is so much weather helm until you'll break the tiller or rudder.

Through bolt. If you sail in mostly 'thin' water, you may want to go very small to begin with with some sort of sacrificial dowel rod or small brass bolt. I don't know about that I as I always used quarter inch stainless.

The rudder will drag well before the rudder anyway and mostly stop you from reaching the level of the rudder.
My opinion and I've been in some very shallow water at the coast, even been aground hard enough to close the keel most of the way, but never had a problem with the rudder dragging, although I certainly could.

Good luck
Kemo



Boat Name:

Model/Year:

Hull No.

Hailing Port:
08/02/2005 10:13 AM Pacific Time

I know he meant the keel will drag before the rudder....

and all he says is so true.....


I have always used stainless 1/4 inch...also....

for what it is worth

tom newmann

lake hopatcong NJ...


.

ED VOYDA
Schaumburg, IL.

Boat Name: SEA FEVER

Model/Year: Catalina 22 1974

Hull No. 3771

Hailing Port: chicago
08/02/2005 11:17 AM Pacific Time

I guess my question is "should the rudder blade wobble from side to side within the castings?" There was no problem with it kicking up during sailing. I would hate to thru bolt it as my docking location is close to the shore on a star dock and if I make too wide a swing moving in or out, i could possibly touch bottom.
Thanks.
Russ Devans
Buffalo NY

Boat Name: N E Wind

Model/Year: C22 1981

Hull No. 10248

Hailing Port: Port Colborne, Ontario, Canada
08/02/2005 12:22 PM Pacific Time

I solved the problem of the rudder kicking up by doing the following. The tightining handle threads would strip out and have to be redone every season. I welded a stainless steel bolt head to the tightening handle and placed a fiber nut in the hex recess that the bolt head was in originally . Drill a small hole in the bolt then after installing the lock nut install a small cotter pin. this will make sure the bolt can never completely come out without removing the cotter pin. The rudder kick up bolt will tighten much easier and makes a great difference in its operation. Catalina should change the original design of this part to what I suggested it works 100% better.
Larry
Greenville, SC

Boat Name: Kemo Sabe

Model/Year: C-22 , 1973

Hull No. 2229

Hailing Port: www.keoweesailingclub.com
08/02/2005 7:49 PM Pacific Time

<<<<"should the rudder blade wobble from side to side within the castings?" >>

Ed,

No. The rudder should not wobble.Take it apart and check everything. If all is there and no problems, I'd shim the thing. But, something is wrong, missing, if it is wobbling that badly. Some I have seen are loose, but wobbling around? Nope. No without a problem.

Good luck,
Larry

Larry
Greenville, SC

Boat Name: Kemo Sabe

Model/Year: C-22 , 1973

Hull No. 2229

Hailing Port: www.keoweesailingclub.com
08/02/2005 7:56 PM Pacific Time

Tom,

Yeip, that's what I meant to type! Thanks.
Good to hear you again!

Kemo
Barry P. Broyles
North East, Maryland

Boat Name: Brighteyes

Model/Year: C22 1973

Hull No. 1909

Hailing Port: Middle River, MD
09/11/2005 10:37 PM Pacific Time

I had the problem with my kick up rudder being sloppy. I removed the lower fiberglass fin from the upper aluminum part and measured everything. What I found is that the lower aft corner of the outside aluminum plates had been spread over the years. In an attempt to correct the spread I clamped the plates together with a 6"C clampso they were touching and left them over night. In the morning when I removed the clamp they sprung back to the original possition, so I tried it for a week and later over winter haulout to no avail. In the spring I tried a 3" C Clampon the assambled rudder and found that while it was on and tightened it eliminated all play in the rudder but still allowed the rudder to kick up if it hit an obstruction. Ever since I keep a 3" C Clamp in the starboard cockpit locker tied to the starboard end of the traveler rod with a 3/16" polyester line and I lower the rudder and install the clamp before leaving the dock. I have not had a problem with the rudder since.
Dick King
Melbourne, FL

Boat Name: Twilight Zone

Model/Year: Sport/2005

Hull No. 15546

Hailing Port: Melbourne, FL
09/12/2005 6:03 AM Pacific Time

A former (work got it the way of sailing) members of our fleet had a similar problem. His solution was a pair of long jawed ViseGrips. He had the pliers attached to the traveller bar with a long piece of parachute cord. It looked really strange, but it worked for him.
Brian Powell
Warren, Oregon

Boat Name: Yahct of Fun

Model/Year: 1975

Hull No.

Hailing Port: St. Helens
09/12/2005 10:40 PM Pacific Time

I modified my swing rudder a couple of months ago. I drilled through my rudder and epoxied a stainless rivet purchased from CD into by rudder just opposite the cast aluminum lock-down bracket, centered off one of the three lugs. I then used a 1/2" twist drill to recess the lug on the aluminum casting to occomadate the head of the rivet which is positioned above the surface of the side of rudder. When I tighten down the swing rudder, the casting locks over the rivet and holds the rudder down while sailing, but if the rudder strikes an object, it will pivot over the rivet, and work as intended. The rudder stays down as it should at hull speed.

Before the rivet modification, I used a 5/16 x 1-7/8 hex head nylon bolt with a nylon wing nut through the aluminum side plates and rudder. That way, the bolt can easily shear without damaging the rudder. Just carry a spare.

The reason I went with the rivet modification is that I moore in shallow water at low tide, and would have to pull the bolt out a minumum of two times on every outing.

Even when my swing rudder is locked down tight, it does wabble a little. The aluminum lugs are wore down a bit.

Brian.
Brian Powell
Warren, Oregon

Boat Name: Yahct of Fun

Model/Year: 1975

Hull No.

Hailing Port: St. Helens
09/12/2005 11:02 PM Pacific Time

Larry,
It is possible that the round aluminum casting just inside the threaded handle can pop out of its home position if the handle is not tightened properly. If this happens, the fin will wobble side to side. Check to see that the 3 lugs are firmly against the fin when the handle is tight.
robert walmsley
kelseyville ca.95451

Boat Name: bobscat

Model/Year: 1979

Hull No. 8913

Hailing Port: clearlake ca.
09/18/2005 4:44 PM Pacific Time

my rudder used to kick up in heavy air also. After seeing idasailor rudder i desided todrill anouther hole for the pivit bolte in the aluminum houseing 1 1/4 in. behind the existing hole .I reinstalled the rudder blade useing the new hole, and pined it in the full down position. Wow what a differance. Much easyer on the tiller in heavy air ,and a lot less weather helm.



Boat Name:

Model/Year:

Hull No.

Hailing Port:
09/19/2005 3:21 AM Pacific Time


I had those problems until I did some rather radical surgery to "Chip Ahoy's" rudder blade and housing last winter/spring.

See: "Upgrade, Repair, Restoration and Refinishing Projects"
http://chipford.com/projects.htm

Then scroll down to "Solving the Rudder Slop Project" and click on it.

What I left out is the additional hours it took to sand and file down the excess on the aluminum plates this spring to get the rudder to lift and drop smoothly -- but it now works perfectly; I have full adjustment with the handle.

Chip Ford --
Marblehead, Mass.
1974 Swing Keel "Chip Ahoy" #3282
Chip Ahoy website: www.chipford.com
Peter
Stamford, CT

Boat Name: Au Contraire

Model/Year: Catalina 22 1986

Hull No. 13325

Hailing Port: Stamford
09/19/2005 4:28 AM Pacific Time

I also had the problem of the rudder working its way up while sailing. My fix was rather simple.

On the rudder about 6 inches (6 inches if my memory is right) down from the pivot hole, there is another small hole. The same is true on the metal housing the rudder fits into.

I put a clevis pin in the hole in the rudder, with a washer. Then I put the rudder into the metal housing and tightened the through bolt, as you would normally do. The extra hole in the metal plate has only the clevis pin top in it. In other words it does NOT have the pin going throught the metal plate and into the rudder.

That slight extra holding power of the clevis pin cap, which is off center from the pivot hole, is enough to hold the rudder in place during all my sailing and in an emergency, were the rudder to hit something hard, like a CT rock, it would definitely allow the rudder to kick up.

Lastly, to answer a question posed earlier in this thread, there should be no slop (wobbling) in the rudder.
Peter
Stamford, CT

Boat Name: Au Contraire

Model/Year: Catalina 22 1986

Hull No. 13325

Hailing Port: Stamford
09/19/2005 4:38 AM Pacific Time

I forgot to add. When you wish to bring the boat into shallow waters or beach the boat, just loosen the rudder with the handle. The clevis pin will not affect this operation at all.
sharon
rye, nh

Boat Name: Knot Pumpin'

Model/Year: 1983 Catalina 25 Swing

Hull No.

Hailing Port: Rye Harbor, NH
06/07/2008 5:17 PM Pacific Time

I have a 1983 C-25 swing keel on a trailer and i am just about to launch her for the 1st time. My only concern is the lenth of the rudder as it is so long... i am a bit concerned that i may hit bottom when launching or recovering. I believe the ramp is quite steep and i am planning on high tide or at least half high... anybody have any issues with it and what remedies employed????
Jim Kuertz
Cincinnati, Ohio

Boat Name: Almost Heaven III

Model/Year: 1989 Wing

Hull No. 14834

Hailing Port: Indian Lake, Ohio
06/08/2008 8:34 AM Pacific Time

ED VOYDA,

My disks have a raised portion that fits in holes in the rudder plates, if they are not in their prospective holes they will not seat properly and probably not tighten the rudder.


Jim
Bilgeboy
Carrboro, NC

Boat Name: Kosher Cannoli, Northern Light

Model/Year: C22 Swing 1988, C34 Wing 2003

Hull No. 14447, 1632

Hailing Port: Kerr Lake, NC
08/31/2009 7:45 PM Pacific Time

We have an '88 C22 with a kick-up rudder. We spend our days checking out the many coves in the lake and beach the boat on a regular basis. The high stern pulpit along with the split backstay, transom ladder, outboard, traveler and other objects make accessing the rudder lock handle from the boat a frustrating endeavor. We thought of leaving the handle loose and using a small line with a jam cleat to hold it down - but haven't implemented it yet. Or replacing the handle with a sprocket and chain / band rising to a handle at the top of the rudder casting assembly. Then of course we could always buy the uni-foil rudder ;-)
Does anyone have any ideas or comments?
Thanx,
Z&L
Lynn Buchanan
Nevada City, CA

Boat Name: SAILYNN

Model/Year: SWING 1984

Hull No. 11994

Hailing Port: SCOTTS FLAT LAKE, CA
09/01/2009 8:49 PM Pacific Time

Sharon, I also had a C25 rudder that sat very low to the ground when the boat was on the trailer. After scrapping it on the launch ramp hauling out with the trailer (and subsequent fiberglass/gelcoat repair), we opted to remove it upon haul out. If the rudder is not water logged, it should not be too heavy to lift off while the boat is in the water, as it will float quite a lot. If the rudder has been compromised with water, it will be quite heavy and a little more difficult to deal with. In that case, just as the boat (on trailer) clears the water at the ramp, walk to the stern and remove the rudder before pulling up the ramp. Store the rudder away from the sun when not in use as the heat will cause the damp core to swell and split the sides. Good luck.
Howard Friedman
Pisgah Forest, NC

Boat Name: Forspacious Seas

Model/Year: Wing - 1989

Hull No. 14907

Hailing Port: Lake Keowee-Seneca, SC
09/02/2009 6:40 PM Pacific Time

I will just discuss the wobble. I had a '75 with a kick-up. The metal disks have three longish cylindrical knobs,120 deg. apart, that fit thru the housing and press on the rudder blade when tightened. The housing also has a small metal bump located above the pin hole, that fits into a metal dimple pressed into the rudder glass. This is supposed to add resistance to kicking up but usually fails. Shortly after, Catalina started using a different metal casting with only one metal protrusion and possibly changed the blade thickness. I got it new so I know this was factory equipment. I broke my original blade on my old boat but got a factory replacement. It measures 27/32" on the front edge, at the height of the pin hole. I am not able to measure the blade on my new boat right now. It is possible that you have some combination of the new and old. My old blade always kicked up. My new one doesn't
Howard Friedman
Pisgah Forest, NC

Boat Name: Forspacious Seas

Model/Year: Wing - 1989

Hull No. 14907

Hailing Port: Lake Keowee-Seneca, SC
09/02/2009 6:43 PM Pacific Time

I see that I might have just answered a very old question but it might still be of value. Otherwise "NEVERMIND!"
 
 
Hull / Keel / Rudder / Tiller
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