Rich Fox
Indianapolis
Boat Name: SeDepecher
Model/Year: 2006
Hull No. 15582
Hailing Port: Indianapolis, IN |
 01/01/2005 10:29 AM Pacific Time
How about a forum/discussion for wing keel owners to share information on getting the most out of the wing keel Catalina 22?
How do you like the wing keel model?
Who has the lowest number wing keel?
Do you race your wing keel...if so, how does it perform?
Do you have tips to improve the performance of your wing keel whether cruising or racing?
How about tips on launching the wing keel?
What do you see as the market value of your wing keel compared to other models in your area?
Rich Fox
SePlaire #14411
|
Rich Fox
Indianapolis
Boat Name: SeDepecher
Model/Year: 2006
Hull No. 15582
Hailing Port: Indianapolis, IN |
01/01/2005 10:55 AM Pacific Time
I own #14411 - a 1988 wing keel and sail her on Eagle Creek Sailing Club, Indianapolis, Indiana.
I have found the wing keel boat to be a terrific well-rounded cruiser/racer.
When cruising the wing keel gives me piece of mind that the keel is solidly attached to the boat, and requires absolutely no maintenance. However, I have found the depth of the blade rudder to be deeper than that draft of the wing keel. This is good and bad. Good in the sense that my rudder will scrape bottom before the flat bottom surface of the wing keel touches bottom and gets stuck. Bad in the sense that the rudder will take the damage if the boat is moving fast through the water when hitting bottom.
I do race the wing keel in PHRF and C22 class. I have raced two C22 National Regattas (2001, 2004) in the Silver Fleet. Have finished in the middle in both races Regattas. In the 2004 National Regatta I was the only wing keel and beat all other swing keel boats at least once during the series. I also sailed solo the entire week. In the 2001 Regatta, I beat all swing keel boats at least once, except Sandy Z (#987), who took all bullets in the Fleet.
In PHRF racing at our sailing club, I have a PHRF base rating of 261 (plus 2 for non-spin) and will usually outperform most other boats in our fleet (PHRF 203+) on a regular basis. I swept first place across all three Spring Series Races in 2004 in my class at the Club. And decided to back off on racing in the Fall Series to protect my PHRF number for the followng year.
I have found the wing keel boat to be extremely sensitive to sail trim. If you trim the wing keel just right, and in 8-13 MPH wind, you can do as well as the swing keel boats. In heavy wind the boat will slide sideways if not kept; on its feet. In light wind, some days she kicks butt, other days she will finish last. In summary, the wing keel is a very sensitive boat, kinda like me, and requires a commitment to make her perform well.
I am a firm believer that the wing keel boat has gotten bad raps from many owners who like to race. I remain dedicated to trying to maximize the potential of the wing keel in C22 class regattas. My boat is in the shop right now having multiple layers of ablative paint removed, and VC17 added, which will improve the boat speed.
I sail the boat with no mast rake...actually, it probably leans a bit forward. I found this to give me a pretty balanced helm...keeping the rudder flowing straight through the water and reducing rudder friction. I also sail with a blade rudder, no kick-up. With zero mast rake I have found my wing keel boat to point nearly as well as the swing keel boats in class racing. In PHRF racing, I can usually outpoint the other boats.
In the Midwest Region, a wing keel boat in good condition will demand top dollar, ranging from at least $7500+ for a 1988 model on up. The wing keel boats are hard to find and they are in demand in the Midwest. They sell in a matter of weeks, or a month.
When trailering I only use the tongue extension when retrieving, not launching...unless the ramp slope is minimal. I also use the PVC trailer guides to get the boat in the center of the trailer so that the wing keel will sit in the proper location. The keel also carries the bulk of the weight of the boat on the trailer, not the bunk boards. The bunk boards are for keep the boat balanced, not to carry the weight. I have read that the keel should carry at least 60% of the weight on the trailer.
Now it is your turn to tell us about your wing keel and what you like/dislike about it.
Rich Fox
SePlaire #14411 |
David
Fairport, NY
Boat Name: 2nd Chance
Model/Year: Catalina 22 Wing Keel 1999
Hull No. 15108
Hailing Port: Pultneyville, NY |
04/02/2005 7:51 AM Pacific Time
Rich,
I sail a fixed wing keel C22 as well. 1999 model year, very close to yours. I had problems this past year getting boat speed and pointing on starboard tack. I was wondering about mast rake. I used to sail Hobie 16's and they like a lot of mast rake. I read that you sail with no rake and find that your performance is good. How do you set up and tune your shrouds? Do you have a method, or is it by "feel". I have a roller furling jib and was wondering if that is effecting the rig tension?
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Dave
2nd Chance |
R Thomas
Long Beach, CA
Boat Name:
Model/Year: C-22 1989
Hull No. 14922
Hailing Port: Long Beach |
04/03/2005 6:29 PM Pacific Time
Rich,
I was told the same thing about 60% of the weight on the keel by Trailright trailers.
I have a 1989 wing keel and love it also. I also previously had a swing keel, hull 515. I like the way the wing sails better than the swing. It feels much more stable.
I bought it in San Diego without a trailer. I had a real problem locating a trailer. The rigging was shot so I did not want to risk loosing a mast sailing up the coast to Long Beach ( 100 miles). I lost the mast on the swing due to bad rigging. What a violent experience that was...
Bob Thomas
C-22 14922 |
PHILIP & SHARON MERLIER
FELLSMERE, FLORIDA
Boat Name: SWIZZLE STICK
Model/Year: 1990 C22
Hull No.
Hailing Port: FELLSMERE, FLORIDA |
04/04/2005 6:29 AM Pacific Time
Hello:
I also have a wing keel model. I am very happy with its performance. I purchased it because I didn't want to spend my time doing the maintenance associated with swing keels. I have also found myself sailing it in some radical conditions and felt very secure knowing it was securely fastened to the bottom of the boat. When on a national cruise in the past, similar conditions resulted in significant damage to a couple swing keel boats while mine pulled through with no problems. I also find that I may have to rake the mast slightly forward to balance the rig however it does not seem to affect pointing ability. When sailing with other boats my fully overloaded cruising C22 seems to have no problem keeping up with all but the very best racers who have hardly any weight in their boats. I believe that performance is more affected by attention to sailing technique than the difference in keel shape. Launching my boat is facilitated by some large rollers that the keel rests on.
Philip Merlier |
Rich Fox
Indianapolis
Boat Name: SeDepecher
Model/Year: 2006
Hull No. 15582
Hailing Port: Indianapolis, IN |
04/04/2005 4:18 PM Pacific Time
Dave-
Regarding mast rake, yes, I keep the mast straight...no rake.
In the past, when I raked the mast aft, the boat sailed with a lot of weatherhelm. The weatherhelm required me to compensate with the rudder (at an angle), thus slowing down the boat because of the increased resistance created by the rudder.
by keeping the mast straight, there is little weatherhelm and my rudder remains straight, which minimizes resistance.
I can point just as high as most swing keel boats.
Rich Fox
SePlaire #14411
Westfield, IN
|
Howard Friedman
Pisgah Forest, NC
Boat Name: Forspacious Seas
Model/Year: Wing - 1989
Hull No. 14907
Hailing Port: Lake Keowee-Seneca, SC |
04/05/2005 11:36 AM Pacific Time
I also have a wing-keel '89 #14907. We all seem to be closely grouped by Hull Nos. I previously had a "75 swing (can't remember the #) that was lost during H. Andrew. I spent a lot of time dealing with keel and winch problems as well as stress cracks around the keel well. I love the low maintenance of the wing. It also feels a lot more stable. I have, however, noticed a small crack in the wing section of my keel. I believe it is made of lead. Does anyone have any experience repairing a crack in lead?
I would also appreciate any tips on mast tuning, perhaps Loos gauge readings, etc. I have an adjustable split backstay from CD and a Flexible Furler for the Jib. It was interesting to note that no mast rake is recommended. I have never seen that info before and was tuning to the guide which calls for significant rake.
Looking forward to your replies- |
Rich Fox
Indianapolis
Boat Name: SeDepecher
Model/Year: 2006
Hull No. 15582
Hailing Port: Indianapolis, IN |
04/05/2005 4:48 PM Pacific Time
Howard-
The tuning guide recommends mast rake. However, I question if any consideration was given to the wing keel design.
My objective with zero mast rake was to minimize weatherhelm. When there is weatherhelm you have to compensate with the rudder, creating resistance, which is slow.
Regarding Loos settings, this is what I use:
Forward: 30
Uppers: 30
Lowers: 26
Rich Fox
SePlaire #14411
Westfield, IN
|
Howard Friedman
Pisgah Forest, NC
Boat Name: Forspacious Seas
Model/Year: Wing - 1989
Hull No. 14907
Hailing Port: Lake Keowee-Seneca, SC |
04/07/2005 8:00 AM Pacific Time
Thanks Rich. I have mine set in the mid 20's but I think alittle more tension would be better. I'm going to take out the rake. What do you set your stays at? I can't get a reading with the furler on and I have an adjustable split backstay. |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22/'76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
04/08/2005 5:58 AM Pacific Time
Guys, I don't have a winged keel, but I have found, belately, that weather helm is more a function of mainsail out haul and fang tensions than mast rake. The other thing is the sheeting of the Genoa, if too much it can change the weather helm. Also, I think you have to have some weather helm or you will not point and go to weather relly well. When I first sailed C22's, I pulled out the outhaul whenever I went to weather, seemed like the thing to do, not so, I was sailing with lee-helm, and not pointing, by accident we forgot to pull out the outhaul once in a close race when rounding the leeward mark and found we were pointing. The other thing that is important on a C22 is the slack of the headstay to be able to point. I don't know about a rolling furler jib, but I have assume that the principle should apply.
Just my thoughts, for what they're worth,
Al Ge |
Roland Forsman
Port Charlotte, FL
Boat Name:
Model/Year: 1989
Hull No. 15025
Hailing Port: Port Charlotte |
07/14/2005 12:48 PM Pacific Time
I have just purchased a 1989 Cat 22 with wing keel. It did not come with a trailer, but I found a used tandem sailboat trailer with bunks supported by adjustable struts. I do not know what boat it has been used for. I now need to adjust the bunks to the correct hight for this boat (I may have to extend them). Does anybody have the dimension of the wing keel from the bottom of the boat to the bottom of the keel, or any other dimensions which would help me get the bunk height at least close to correct before I try to retrieve the boat on the trailer at a reamp. The specs states that the draw is 2'6" from which I estimate that the top of the bunks should be about 20 - 24 " higher than the keel support on the trailer.
My plan is to float the boat onto the trailer at a ramp, tie the bow to the trailer, and slowly start pulling the trailer with boat out of the water until the keel rests on the trailer, but not far enough that the boat starts leaning to either side. I would then meaure the distance between the hull and the bunks, and by that determine how much I need to raise the bunks. I believe I will probably have to install new/longer square tube struts for the bunks as they are now raised as far as they will go. The top of the center of the bunks are now about 18 " above the support for the keel.
Any help would be appreciated.
Roland |
R Thomas
Long Beach, CA
Boat Name:
Model/Year: C-22 1989
Hull No. 14922
Hailing Port: Long Beach |
07/15/2005 12:51 PM Pacific Time
Roland,
I have a engineering drawing from Catalina Yachts with the dimensions for a wing keel cradle. It gives the dimensions you need to setup your trailer. 60 percent of the weight must be on the bottom of the keel. I can send this weekend if you email me offline.
Bob Thomas
[email protected]
14922 Wing |
Roland Forsman
Port Charlotte, FL
Boat Name:
Model/Year: 1989
Hull No. 15025
Hailing Port: Port Charlotte |
07/15/2005 2:46 PM Pacific Time
Thanks Bob,
I have sent you an email off line.
Roland |
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
07/15/2005 4:20 PM Pacific Time
Roland,
I would think the supports on your trailer would need to be shortened. If they are 20-24 above the keel support, the 2'6" is to the waterline. The waterline is is way above where the supports contact the hull. I would contact CD for the amount of weight on the keel, most boats will support the weight of the boat on the keel. With just enough weight on the supports to prevent tipping over.
Stan |
Andy Kohler
Canton, GA
Boat Name: Good Times
Model/Year: 1989
Hull No. 14778
Hailing Port: Atlanta |
10/27/2005 8:12 PM Pacific Time
to all,(first post, it may not appear as intended...)
I have read with great interest the posts concerning the set-ups / neutral mast rake / tensions etc. While I am mostly cruising in this boat, I like to tinker and I do like to go as fast as possible
My questions: how does one set the tension on the forestay with a roller furler.The Loose gage won't work. Do we just eye ball it here or are there other things to consider?
Through what size arc can a correctly set-up "winger" be tacked when sailing close hauled into the wind? (with roller furler) On the compass I manage close to 95 degree, but on a GPS plot its more like 100+ degree. How much leeway do these boats generate?
Andy |
Ben Kimball
Winthrop, MA
Boat Name: Della Mae
Model/Year: Catalina 22/1990
Hull No. CTYH5083A090
Hailing Port: Winthrop, MA |
06/02/2006 5:46 AM Pacific Time
I've just purchased a 1990 wing keel model boat. My first project was to strip all the bottom paint in preparation to inspect the bottom, make necessary repairs and apply fresh anti-fouling paint. Before I started I noticed a horizontal row of 4 or 5 rust spots in a line about 1/3 down the keel.
I also noticed a significant bulge in this area. After stripping the paint I discovered the gel coat is intact near the top of the keel but is worn away near the middle exposing the fiberglass matt beneath, as if a previous owner started removing the gel coat and then changed their mind. (Just a guess on my part).If I'm understanding correctly I have a lead ballast keel with a fiberglass jacket. I think my symptoms may indicate a keel that had water penetrating the fiberglass jacket and causing the interior to rust which caused the bulge. I don't know if I'm on the right track or what my next step should be. I'll be gratefull for any advice and I'd like to learn all I can if there is a source of information on this subject. Thank you! |
Jim Kuertz
Cincinnati, Ohio
Boat Name: Almost Heaven III
Model/Year: 1989 Wing
Hull No. 14834
Hailing Port: Indian Lake, Ohio |
06/03/2006 3:37 AM Pacific Time
I just purchased # 14834 but haven't sailed her very much yet. I am surprised how well it handles in 12 to 15 knot winds. I had a 22 swing keel for 10 years then a Catalina 25 (#5049) fin keel for 20 years. I had to get a shole draft boat as I sail in a lake in Ohio that averages only eight feet and has several stumps a lot shallower. I replaced the blade rudder with a kickup. I have a like new blade rudder with 1/2" pintles and blue bottom paint painted (2006) that I would sell if anyone is interested. |
Jim Haugen
White Bear Lake
Boat Name: Jabberwocky
Model/Year: 1993
Hull No. 15312
Hailing Port: White Bear Lake |
06/21/2006 10:06 AM Pacific Time
Hello all. I am new to the discussion group and I am testing out my e-mail to see if I have my home port information entered. I would like to contribute to the dialog regarding racing the wing keel. I have many questions and hopefully a few comments to make in this area. I'm finding the information very helpfull and was wondering if the discussion is still occurring or is there a seperate forum area that the dialog has moved to. I'm still learning how this works. |
Carl Salamone
New Berlin, WI
Boat Name: Marbella
Model/Year: 1988
Hull No. 14593
Hailing Port: |
07/01/2008 9:24 AM Pacific Time
Has anyone had any experience re-fairing a wing keel? I'm in the process of re-finishing the hull and have left the most mysterious job for last. The fiberglass gel coat is very pitted, but doesn't seem to have any large cracks except for where the gel coat is flaking away.
I posted on Sailnet and was recommended to try and re-fit the keel to a NACA profile. That just opens a huge can of worms. I'm more a cruiser and don't know if I need the extra speed that could be gained by a newly profiled keel. Plus, I have no idea where I'd find the proper profile.
Instead I sanded and hit the cracking with some air in an effort to remove anything that was loose. Then I painted on some Epiglass epoxy resin to hopefully fill and seal any of those cracks. I'm going to sand it next and fill it with water-tite filler. That is unless anyone with more experience has any suggestions for me... Thanks! |
PHILIP & SHARON MERLIER
FELLSMERE, FLORIDA
Boat Name: SWIZZLE STICK
Model/Year: 1990 C22
Hull No.
Hailing Port: FELLSMERE, FLORIDA |
07/02/2008 6:38 AM Pacific Time
Ben Kimball:
I am familiar with at least part of your problem.
Our lead wing keels are bolted to a fiberglass stump that extends down from the hull (actually about a 1/3 of the way down --- as you described). I also developed a line of small rust spots at the line where the lead joins the fiberglass. I suspected it was due to the keel bolts rusting. However, there was no movement of the lead keel in relation to the fiberglass stump mount and the keel nuts were tight. Since we were sailing the boat to the Bahamas we were very concerned about the integrity of the entire unit so we called Catalina Yachts and mentioned that we were wondering if it was a "safety issue". Well that got everyones attention. Frank Butler (Mr Catalina) himself called me on the phone and explained how the keel is constructed and answered our questions. He said that the stainless keel bolts are J shaped at the end where they are embedded in the keel and there is no chance that they will ever come out. He also reassured me that the rust of the bolts will never be a cause for concern in our life time. In other words don't worry about it which is what we did. It has been several years now and I have seen no change at all. The spots are not bigger and no looseness has developed.
If I was retired and had lots of patience and free time to blow I would consider dropping the keel, cleaning up the keel bolts, and then remounting it with lots of good sealant and finally refairing and regelcoating. But that is not the case so I am just watching, watching, watching, it.
As far as you buldges are concerned I don't know what they are since I did not experience that.
Hope this helps. |
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
07/03/2008 5:15 AM Pacific Time
Hi All,
This is just a comment on getting a wing keel off if grounded. The boat should be taken off the shoal by being pushed/dragged backward. The keel seems to be kanted slightly downward, which is exacerbated if someone is on the bow pulling on an anchor to kedge the boat. This advice comes from helping get a couple of wing keels off different shoals in the Chesapeake.
Tom
Quixotic |
Lynn Buchanan
Nevada City, CA
Boat Name: SAILYNN
Model/Year: SWING 1984
Hull No. 11994
Hailing Port: SCOTTS FLAT LAKE, CA |
07/06/2008 12:36 PM Pacific Time
This is just a question to C22ers out there. My first C22 was a winged keel 87 #14644 from Nevada City, CA. with the name FORUTOO (for u too). We traded it in to the dealer in Alameda, CA for a new C30. I sure liked that boat and was wondering if anyone out there knows where the boat ended up (latest owner) or some of it's history after it left our hands. You can email me at [email protected] or call 530-470-0511 if you have any information. Thanks! |
Scot Dannenbring
Rapid City, SD
Boat Name:
Model/Year: Catalina 22
Hull No. 14743
Hailing Port: |
12/02/2008 7:54 AM Pacific Time
I sold my Catalina 25 sk this summer and bought a 1988 Catalina wk #14743. I have yet to sail her as winter reared its ugly head! I plan on doing a bottom job on her this spring. Clean old paint and apply VC 17. It looks like I may have a blister on the Keel about ¼ of the way down on the Port side. I will know more when I remove the old bottom paint.
Any tricks or things I should look for when removing the old paint? I can’t tell if it’s an Ablative paint or not. It sort of rubs off but seems sort of hard like VC17 too.
I plan on using my old Garmin 178C and a in-hull mount transducer, has anyone had experience with using a In-hull mount Transducer with the wing keel? Placement with the puck? What about the copper in the VC 17?
Thanks
Scot
Rapid City, SD
Catalina 22, wk #14743
|
keith
proctor vt
Boat Name: none
Model/Year: 2000 catalina,wing keel 22
Hull No. ukn
Hailing Port: vt |
03/23/2014 5:51 AM Pacific Time
Need suggestions on rigging a light air sail on a furoured sail |
keith
proctor vt
Boat Name: none
Model/Year: 2000 catalina,wing keel 22
Hull No. ukn
Hailing Port: vt |
03/23/2014 5:52 AM Pacific Time
Need suggestions on rigging a light air sail on a furoured sail on a 22 wing keel
|
Roderick Treece
Encinitas Ca
Boat Name: Gone with the wind
Model/Year: 1989
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
07/28/2018 1:57 PM Pacific Time
I have a 1989 wing keel. Right before I was to leave a trip to the Channel Islands las month I noticed while my boat was on the trailer that The keel right where it attaches to the stump has a series of horizontal cracks running front to back on both sides.Maybe 5 or 6 of them. None are deep enough to even feel them with a finger nail but still unnerving . The boats been in the water for over a month now and they still look the same. I plan on taking it to be looked at when it comes out of the water next month. |
