John Blackwood
Boat Name: Miss Marie
Model/Year: 1975
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
 05/29/2005 2:46 PM Pacific Time
My older C22 sails fairly well in light air but as soon as the wind picks up to 15 knots or so the weather helm gets to be a problem. I usually sail with a jib, not the standard genoa, and thought maybe that would be part of the issue. Has anybody else experienced this and what can I do to tune the rigging so that this issue is gone? Please help. |
Kevin and Pat
Miranda, CA
Boat Name: HOPE
Model/Year: Catalina 22 1971
Hull No. #403
Hailing Port: Miranda, CA |
10/30/2005 8:25 AM Pacific Time
Reef the main. Tighten outhaul firmly. This will reduce weather helm, stand the boat up, and probably increase speed. |
Michael Smalter
Webster, NY
Boat Name: Marrakesh
Model/Year: 1986
Hull No. 13645
Hailing Port: Rochester, NY |
10/31/2005 5:20 PM Pacific Time
Another option is to move the top of the mast forward by loosening the aft lowers, and tightening the forward lowers. Try 5 half-turns on the turnbuckle, and see how it works. This will reduce weather helm, but you need to make sure you don't induce lee helm. |
Scott Tomlinson
Windermere FL
Boat Name:
Model/Year: 1984
Hull No.
Hailing Port: Cocoa |
11/01/2005 5:27 AM Pacific Time
When you are not racing you can crank up the swing keel a little. This will move the center of pressure under the water line back on the boat and back in relation to the center of pressure on the sails.
Some have told me the rudder is the bigger problem, especially ones that are kick up. If it swings back in my boat we will get a bad weather helm. Someone here suggested a c clamp to help keep it down without preventing it from kicking up when it hits something solid.
There is a class rule on this but you can still be legal by putting in some ss washers between the boat surface and the upper attachment pins of the rudder (gudgeon pins?) and thereby rotating the rudder down to a more vertical postion and parallel to the transome.
In my National Catalina 22 magazine someone has a new designed rudder that is not class approved but apparently works. It think it is a $300 dollar fix.
Joe Waters, of waterssails.com or org moves his mast as far forward as the race rules allow. Somewhere there is a maximum measurement from the aft of the boat to the mast.
I am told that the best option (only $2500) is buying new racing sails that are not blown out. Apparently in "blown out" sails the center of pressure moves aft and produces a nice weather helm. Newer design sails seem to have the capability of flattening. If you over tighten all your sail adjustments you can produce some of this same effect. This is a little hard to do after the wind has picked up. If you do this long enough you will eventually rip your sails beyond repair and this event might convince the chief of staff to buy you a new set of sails. |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22 '76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
11/01/2005 7:00 AM Pacific Time
I think that a flattenning reef is a good choice. But you can let the traveler go, and as first mentioned take the out haul out, pull the Cunningham down hard, and sheet the sails in as far as you can. The idea is to 'de-power' the rig, with flat sails, especially the main.
Al Ge |
Stefan Damstrom
Boat Name: Delfina sold!
Model/Year: C22mK2 / 1987
Hull No. 14306 sold :-(
Hailing Port: |
11/01/2005 9:09 AM Pacific Time
I do some racing on J-33's and we typically have a very tight mainsheet and adjust traveller to alleviate weather helm. You can of course let off on the boom vang and main sheet at the gusts increase to give you more twist, thereby depowering your main. C22's travellers are not the most elegant for this but....it may be worth a try before detuning your mast. |
steve smith
rothesay nb canada
Boat Name: all hours
Model/Year: 1975?
Hull No. 4928
Hailing Port: rothesay yacht club |
11/01/2005 12:45 PM Pacific Time
My 2 cent's worth...heavy helm on a c22 will not go away but can be reduced,2 of the suggested FIXES work for us.Reef after white-caps form and crank up the keel half way to move the center of lateral resistance of pressure.aft.The pressure on the main goes forward with the reef and the pressure on the keel moves aft creating a better balance..it works.
Set the stick straight and leave it there,masts are not the problem and yes the rudder could be modified to a more efficient shape,Tanzer did it,they steer like j24's with the new rudders and a handy guy can do it too....cheers. |
Michael Smalter
Webster, NY
Boat Name: Marrakesh
Model/Year: 1986
Hull No. 13645
Hailing Port: Rochester, NY |
11/01/2005 2:49 PM Pacific Time
Steve, I disagree with your general statement that "Masts are not the problem". The variation in mast step placement (I think I heard +/-2") has been documented, and if you have the +2" or -2" boat, it will have a profound effect on weather (or lee) helm.
I had a 17 foot Bandit that broke the rudder box in high winds due to the poor balance of the boat. It had a multi-hole stay adjustment, and 1 hole (3/8"?) adjustment changed the tiller force from 40 pounds to less than 10. Likewise, I sailed a Hobie that always stuck in irons when tacking. We took a link out of the forestay attachment (ie moved the top of the mast forward), and it suddenly tacked like a dream.
I agree the stay setup is not something you would change while sailing, but if you have strong weather helm in high winds and more than light weather helm in light winds, you can go faster with less stress on the boat by moving the top of the mast forward. Any force exerted on the rudder to keep a sraight course is robbing the boat of speed. |
Tim Seifert
Boat Name: Mary's Joy
Model/Year:
Hull No. 8281
Hailing Port: Holyrood, Newfoundland |
11/02/2005 4:58 AM Pacific Time
But if you raise the keel a few turns, don't you lose the righting moment, and doesn't the ability to windward suffer (because of a loss of lift from changing keel shape)? |
steve smith
rothesay nb canada
Boat Name: all hours
Model/Year: 1975?
Hull No. 4928
Hailing Port: rothesay yacht club |
11/02/2005 5:38 AM Pacific Time
Hi Tim,yes the righting moment has to be considered,but reefing is the answer and performance barely suffers except for the anoying cable humm.If,after these adjustments we have to steer with 2 hands ,and a foot braced against the seat it's time to run.
Installing a jiffy reef will make your day.These boats have a long boom and bringing the center of effort closer to the mast and flatening the sail makes them sail much better when it gets windy.
Don't want to sound like a blow-hard but this is a simple solution that works without re-inventing an already good design.The rudder also floats up somewhat creating hugh helm so keep that in mind.Mine has a locking bar and if I forget to tighten it the helm soon tells me to.
Roger and out.... |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22 '76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
11/02/2005 5:40 AM Pacific Time
On #11660 it had lee helm and did not point well with the other boats, we seemed to make up for it some times by going a bit faster. Then one day we forgot to tighten the out haul after rounding a leeward mark and the difference was astonding, weather helm and we climbed to weather on our competition. I leave that outhaul loose to get weather helm, never thought I had too much. Of course I flatten the sails and drop the traveler to keep the helm no more than 5 degrees off center.
For what it's worth.
Al Ge |
winn
Boat Name:
Model/Year: 1970
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
11/02/2005 8:16 AM Pacific Time
there are several rig tune suggestions available on the c22 website that will help with getting the mast in the right place. most suggest that there is a different rig tune for light versus heavy air. most suggest that moving the mast forward in heavy air will help with helm issues.
however, it is easy to confuse weather helm and helm pressure. with weather helm you are constantly fighting to keep the bow down by pulling the tiller to weather. helm pressure is the amount of effort required to keep the tiller centered in the boat. unfortunately the design of the rudder(s) on the c22 places all of the rudder blade aft of the pivot centerline ( the pintles) in contrast, some boats have a rudder that has a leading edge in front of the pivot point, a sort of notch that sticks up under the boat. this acts like a power steering assist to reduce the amount of pressure needed to hold the boat on course.
the new rudder available from catalina direct has this feature. it greatly reduces the effort required to steer the c22. all of the standard rudders, including the kick up, angle back at the waterline, actually creating a sort of reverse power steering, requiring more and more effort just to hold the rudder on center as the boat heels. i suppose cross flow from the weather side of the hull is a big factor in this problem. the shape of the rudder, with the increasing chord length at the tip adds to pressure that you feel.
solutions include: moving the mast forward in heavy conditions, reefing the main, easing the traveller, keeping the boat flatter, altering the rudder......(did i say that??????)
many of the rudders have broken just below the waterline. this is blamed on water incursion in the core, but is caused by the pressure centered there, rotting of the core merely decreases the strength. i believe the primary cause is the shape of the blade
if you have a kick up rudder, try taking a small amount of the upper leading edge off the blade to keep the leading edge straight. about 1/2 to 3/4 inch should do it. with a standard blade there are few solutions. but if you are handy with fiberglass, try creating an eliptical blade, cutting off the trailing edge of the rudder at the tip and adding to the rudder at the leading edge.
not legal for racing but if you are a cruiser..................... |
Lynn Buchanan
Nevada City, CA
Boat Name: SAILYNN
Model/Year: SWING 1984
Hull No. 11994
Hailing Port: SCOTTS FLAT LAKE, CA |
11/03/2005 8:00 PM Pacific Time
My boat is race rigged and tuned. I broke down and bought a new rudder two years ago and was instantly amazed at the difference in the helm pressure. I can steer with two fingers now even in moderate wind. I know that is not always a financial option but even when I cruise, I notice the difference and could kick myself for not purchasing the new style rudder sooner. |
Ed Boochard
Kingsport, TN
Boat Name: Tai Pan
Model/Year: C22 / 1987
Hull No. 13833
Hailing Port: Muskegon, MI |
01/14/2009 6:55 PM Pacific Time
light weather helm is desireable for safety reasons. But to minimize weather helm with swing keel boats with genoas it will be necessary to rake the mast to the stearn by adjusting shrouds, and stays. Raking the mast to the stearn by 8" in combination with shifting some stores in the cabin forward, under the V birth will result in a very light weather helm. |
