Graham Jones
Brisbane, Queensland (Australia)
Boat Name: Bullwinkle
Model/Year: Boomaroo 22
Hull No. dont know yet...
Hailing Port: Brisbane |
 11/19/2006 11:55 PM Pacific Time
OK, I have had a good look at all the discussion areas and did not find anyone who has replaced the manual keel winch with an electric one.
Is it just a crazy idea?
My winch is badly corroded (just bought the boat) and a friend mentioned electric winches, which are pretty cheap on eBay now and the could potentially be manually sealed/lubricated to reduce corrosion.
I would like to be able to raise the keel from the cockpit via a remote.
If anyone has done this - could you tell me what size which you used and any other useful info.
many thanks,
Graham. |
Linda Hoffecker
Lancaster, PA
Boat Name: t/c
Model/Year: '82 Cat 22
Hull No. t/c
Hailing Port: Havre de Grace, MD |
11/20/2006 11:41 PM Pacific Time
Fantastic Idea!!!!!!
|
Paul Taylor
Myrtle Point, OR
Boat Name: Respite
Model/Year: C-22 1976
Hull No. 5431
Hailing Port: Coos Bay, OR |
11/21/2006 12:19 AM Pacific Time
If something goes wrong and you break your cable because the motor wouldnt stop in time, then you could sink your boat! |
Graham Jones
Brisbane, Queensland (Australia)
Boat Name: Bullwinkle
Model/Year: Boomaroo 22
Hull No. dont know yet...
Hailing Port: Brisbane |
11/21/2006 12:51 AM Pacific Time
Why would the boat sink if the cable broke? I thought the keel would swing down.
Anyway, I realise I would need to have a mechanism which detected something on the cable, then stopped the winch. Actually how to do this prompted this discussion.
Presumably winches have some sort of cutout when the cable is fully retracted - my 12,000lb four-wheel drive winch does.
I was also thinking of replacing the usual gal cable with stainless steel. |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22 '76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
11/21/2006 5:31 AM Pacific Time
Sounds like a great idea, working out the details will be a good exercise. I would suggest using a transistorized current detector to stop at the full up, as the current will rise sharply when it hits the stop. The full down will have to be a mechanically actuated switch which is easily obtained. You will need a heavy duty contactor/relay and #10 or heavier wire from the battery, but that will be close by, no long runs. I'm not sure where one could find the current detector, but all the other parts are readily available. You are not rolling back the annals of science, so I'm sure an internet search will lead you to a source of a ready made one. Being a retired controls engineer I used to make them as part of control systems, never thought of buying one. The idea is a small control relay with normally closed contacts in series with the ON/OFF switch. The simplest form to detect the current would be a small ohm value, high current capacity resistor, in series with the load, so that when the current spikes the voltage will rise high enought to trip the relay. Then the lower position of the control switch reverse the voltage and lower the keel. All very easily done. Good luck.
For what it's worth,
Al Ge |
Vic
Indianapolis, Indiana
Boat Name: Summer Zamboni
Model/Year: 1985?
Hull No. 13100
Hailing Port: Geist Marina, Indianapolis |
11/21/2006 6:17 AM Pacific Time
Given the limited battery capacity available on a C-22, I would make sure that the winch had some sort of manual cranking mechanism in case you lose power.
|
Lance Jones
Atlanta, GA
Boat Name: Kitty's Cat
Model/Year: 1988
Hull No. 622
Hailing Port: Lake Lanier, Aqualand Marina |
11/21/2006 6:23 AM Pacific Time
Yes, the keel will drop; but, imagine 550+ lbs of iron or lead swinging down with no restraint and then hitting the FIBERGLASS hull. If it doesnt crack the aft part of the keel bunk, it may rip out the keel hangers. |
Greg Baker
Charlotte, NC
Boat Name: Sea Sharp Minor
Model/Year: Catalina 22 - 1984 - Swing Keel
Hull No. 11823
Hailing Port: Lake Norman Sailing Club |
11/21/2006 7:57 AM Pacific Time
I guess a broken cable and a dropping keel could cause some damage but it is not like dropping 550 pounds unrestrained. First the cable only holds one end of the keel, the pin holds the other so it is like dropping 225 pounds if it was not in the water. Then there is the bouyancy of the water, 64 pounds per cubic foot displaced so in the end probably less than a 150 pound equivalent drop. Add to that the viscosity of the water to slow it down, I'm not sure it would do any damage. Anyone have experience with with a busted cable? What happened?
Greg Baker
|
Lance Jones
Atlanta, GA
Boat Name: Kitty's Cat
Model/Year: 1988
Hull No. 622
Hailing Port: Lake Lanier, Aqualand Marina |
11/21/2006 8:05 AM Pacific Time
Don,
If you're still on this list, let them know what happened when you had my boat and the keel was ripped out and sunk. |
Ken Palmer
Franklin, TN.
Boat Name: "Last Penny"
Model/Year: 1981
Hull No. 10475
Hailing Port: PPYC |
11/21/2006 9:28 AM Pacific Time
Not sure how many of you have had your keel out, if you are one of the ones that have then you know that the keel when fully down rest on not more than a 1" X 1 1/2" edge of the keel. Mighty small area that is going to hit if the cable breaks. Oh that cable should already be Stainless Steel and NOT galvanized. I have seen at least one boat the owner cranked up the keel so much he ripped the top off eyebolt on the keel. The new winch brings the keel up at 20 turns, quite an improvement over the old winch. Myself, I think I will stay with the manual winch. Good luck though, I'm in the group that thinks it can be done, just not one who would want one. As a cruiser already have enough items using power. |
Steven Keplinger
Severna Park MD 21146
Boat Name: Nifty
Model/Year: 1978
Hull No. CTYH7999M78B
Hailing Port: Round Bay |
11/21/2006 10:08 AM Pacific Time
Anytime half a dozen folks say something won't work, it's probably a good idea!
|
Lance Jones
Atlanta, GA
Boat Name: Kitty's Cat
Model/Year: 1988
Hull No. 622
Hailing Port: Lake Lanier, Aqualand Marina |
11/21/2006 11:06 AM Pacific Time
I don't think anyone has said it won't work. What has been said is that if the cable breaks when the keel is up, there will probably be catastropic results. I think it would be a good, if expensive (dollars [US & Aus] and volts) modification. |
Ken Dula
Fletcher, N.C.
Boat Name: Second Wind
Model/Year: Catalina 22 1977
Hull No. 7697
Hailing Port: |
11/21/2006 12:06 PM Pacific Time
It seems this would be a terrific modification and I don't see how this would be any harder on the keel cable than a manual winch provided there are stop switches in place. The cable will break regardless of the winch used if the cable is frayed or weak. I would guess that the biggest concern for the system would be tearing the winch mount out after the keel is fully raised (provided the cable is in good condition) versus the cable breaking, so I would install a limit switch and be careful when raising. As a matter of fact, I think I'll work on this setup for my boat, I already know what winch I'd use!! |
Captain Miles H. Ashley
Chincoteague Island, VA
Boat Name: Dragonass
Model/Year: Swing Keel -1972
Hull No. 940
Hailing Port: Chincoteague Island, VA |
11/21/2006 1:03 PM Pacific Time
I've thought about this issue a lot over the past 4 years, but have always been stimied by the limit control issue. However, I have something to add here. I've seen on several other larger swing keel boats the routing of the keel cable from the lift point to the side of the boat. In one case, there was a double purchase over this routing so that there was an increase on the amount of cable that had to be drawn to bring the keel up. When I asked the owner of the boat why he had done this, he replied that he wanted greater precision in bringing the keel up, and it was an alternative to replacing gears in the hoist transmission. Another thing he cautioned about was the use of a hoist vs a winch. |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22 '76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
11/22/2006 5:06 AM Pacific Time
I forgot, when I wrote the above, that the South Coast 26 has a large, I think 1000 or1500 lb bulb keel that is raised by an electric winch right through the center the table in the center of the boat. One could look up their technique and safety methods. Then there is a box cover to put over the winch mechanism when using the table. It is surprising how little amp-hours of power would be required. My objection would be the weight for a race boat, and the requirment to have an engine large enough to have an alternator, and use it enough to keep the battery charged. As I said working out the details is a good excerise.
Al Ge |
Greg Guenther
Belleville, IL
Boat Name: Magnificat
Model/Year: 1970
Hull No. 473
Hailing Port: Belleville, IL |
11/22/2006 5:41 AM Pacific Time
You really wouldn't need an alternator on the engine if you got one of the more aggressive solar panels. That technology has advanced to the point where the panel can actually replace the power used on a daily basis. If you get one of these "solar panels on steroids" make sure that you get expert advice and put in a regulator to protect your battery from over charging. There are times when just hitting a switch would be really attractive. I am not sure that a modern electric winch would weigh that much more than a manual one. It seems like a lot of trouble for very little gain since we (I) don't usually raise and lower the keel that much anyway.
I am all about projects though, successfully completing one gives such a sense of satisfaction.
Greg |
Vic
Indianapolis, Indiana
Boat Name: Summer Zamboni
Model/Year: 1985?
Hull No. 13100
Hailing Port: Geist Marina, Indianapolis |
11/22/2006 6:57 AM Pacific Time
Greg-- the solar panel idea seems like a neat one. Do you have any links or other info about such solar panels? How much do they cost? Where can you get one?
Thanks,
Vic |
Roger Richter
Bloomington, WI
Boat Name: NAVY - TOO
Model/Year: Catalina 22, 1978
Hull No. CTYH8241M78F
Hailing Port: Prairie du Chien, WI |
11/22/2006 7:24 AM Pacific Time
I would suggest you read "Catalina Direct" response to replacing the Catalina winch with a regular trailer winch. The reason not to do this could be the same reason not to try to incorporate an electric winch. I would also ask "Catalina Direct" for their feedback on the idea. |
steve smith
rothesay nb canada
Boat Name: all hours
Model/Year: 1975?
Hull No. 4928
Hailing Port: rothesay yacht club |
11/22/2006 2:47 PM Pacific Time
Holy smokes folks.electric winch?Physics,battery capacities,circuit loading parameters to adjust emerjency stop???I have a telescoping tiller extension and easily raise the darn thing with one hand while steering with the other.
Last year we bounced the keel over 2 rocks and days later found the cable had parted from the swage and was obviously unretractable so a diver friend fixed it for what friends charge with ZERO damage to the structure.The little boats can take it....cheers. |
Graham Jones
Brisbane, Queensland (Australia)
Boat Name: Bullwinkle
Model/Year: Boomaroo 22
Hull No. dont know yet...
Hailing Port: Brisbane |
11/22/2006 3:04 PM Pacific Time
Thanks for all the advice guys.
I will be trying to make it as simple, reliable and safe as possible. I might end up ditching the idea if it gets out of hand.
I have a 80W solar panel, which is bi-facial, meaning 50W one side and 30W on the other, so the sun shines through one side and reflects back onto the other. Plenty of sun in Brisbane!
If the electric motor fails, I wonder if I could rig up block/tacke to a sheet winch to pull it up? |
Steven Keplinger
Severna Park MD 21146
Boat Name: Nifty
Model/Year: 1978
Hull No. CTYH7999M78B
Hailing Port: Round Bay |
11/23/2006 6:17 PM Pacific Time
I kedge off sandbars in the Chesapeake Bay on a regular basis...just throw the Danforth as far away from the boat as possible and pull. Works a charm. We're talking xxxx lbs displacement. Your keel weighs 500 lbs. Maybe. A backup system to a sheet winch will work.
Meanwhile, do the electrics. That will work too. And how sweet! |
Uwe Behrendt
Rutland Vermont
Boat Name: Joyful
Model/Year: 1977 C22
Hull No. 7200
Hailing Port: Plunder Bay Orwell VT |
11/24/2006 5:21 AM Pacific Time
Hi all
Electric winch OK
1 the cable breaks NOT GOOD
I have had the cable pin come out during sailing and while the keel was down I did lose that 6-knot hum we are all accustomed to
Also the keel did not have the Teflon side plates installed but did have the upgrade to the pin this caused the clunk sound we all know
This upgrade is currently under way
2 I do not wish to have the keel fall from the full up position
I would have to JUNK the boat and if on water have a bucket ready and head for shore
3 As to the electric winch concept I like it but I would also like to see a manual override
and most of all KEEP THE COST DOWN. Any more than $100.00 and Il stay with the hand crank.
4 I would like to see a mechanical trip not electronic, Salt tears hell with electronics.
This would then consist of a swaged brass ball at the upper and lower limit of the cable with the upper trip somewhere above the volcano but that would mean a redesign in the track ball at the lower end.
All this can be done but as always design and cost is an issue
Thanks Uwe
3 |
Greg Guenther
Belleville, IL
Boat Name: Magnificat
Model/Year: 1970
Hull No. 473
Hailing Port: Belleville, IL |
11/24/2006 6:14 AM Pacific Time
Vic,
One source of Solar Panels is West Marine (of course) but I typed solar panels into Google and got all kinds of hits. I am looking into one for Magnificat and think that I am going to end up spending around $300 for the entire setup. My biggest challenge is where to mount the thing so it is out of the way.
Greg |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22/'76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
11/24/2006 7:18 AM Pacific Time
In mounting/using solar panels there is one thing to take into consideration. If any one of the units in the array has a hard shadow cast on it that series string of the array will stop. The other strings in parrallel will continue. So the caution is to assure that few shadows to fall on the array. One friend thought it would be good to protect the array so put a protective grid that you could walk on and wondered why it just didn't work. So just a caution. For what it's worth,
Al Ge |
Greg Guenther
Belleville, IL
Boat Name: Magnificat
Model/Year: 1970
Hull No. 473
Hailing Port: Belleville, IL |
11/25/2006 7:57 PM Pacific Time
Thanks Al,
Nothing is simple is it? I read where some guys got the soft units and just laid them out on the bimini or the cabin roof. I am still trying to figure out a good spot. I am sure that if I really think about it when I am on the boat a reasonable spot will occur to me.
Greg |
