Ray Bowles
Boat Name: The Krusty Krab
Model/Year: 1980 C22
Hull No. 9223
Hailing Port: Kettle Falls Wa |
 03/31/2008 2:51 PM Pacific Time
On my 1980 C22 there is a crack in the floor at the base of the compression post. It is right where the floor raises up at the front of the isle walkway. When looking in the forward dinette seat locker the fiberglass that spans from the base of the forward seatback bulkhead to the hull is cracked and crushed. It was a very thin application of glass cloth and appears more decrative than structural.
What stops the interior floor pan assembly under the compression post from flexing down into the hull structure in front of the keel tub?
I have quite alot of experence with fiberglass and a complete shop to work in so I want to make a solid repair.
Thanks for any help.
Ray |
Howard Friedman
Pisgah Forest, NC
Boat Name: Forspacious Seas
Model/Year: Wing - 1989
Hull No. 14907
Hailing Port: Lake Keowee-Seneca, SC |
04/01/2008 6:29 AM Pacific Time
I had a similar crack on my '76. If your boat was constructed anything like mine, this is what might have happened. The wood compression post from under the mast, ends at the top of the bunk. If you look inside the bunk, the face with the keel lock bolt has a little triangular support bracing it. Behind this face and under the top post is nothing more than a piece of 2X4 wedged in at a slight angle to transfer the compression from the top post to the keel. It's not even pressure treated wood so it will rot if it's exposed by cracks. On mine, the glass was just blown into that area and not even laid up. It's function is to tie the leading edge of the keel well to the bulkhead. If the keel is not locked down, it can slap against this side and eventually crack it away from the support post. Then you get compression cracks and small cracks through the floor glass leading to rot in the post. The post then starts to collapse under the compression strain. Thats what happened to mine. I dug out the fill between the leading edge of the keel well and bulkhead and removed the 2X4. I replaced it with a piece of pressure treated wood and held it in place with glass fill. I then laid up glass cloth to join the keel well to the bulkhead and added more triangular supports made out of wood and glass. It worked fine but the repair was too late. Minute stress cracks had already formed in the glass around the floor of the leading edge of the keel well from it's extra movement and eventually the glass rotted away in that area. Fixing that was much more difficult but I finally got it done about a week before hurricane Andrew blew the boat over my roof and into my back yard-but that's another story. There's nothing like doing fiberglass repair with your head in a small enclosed space! Good luck.
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Ray Bowles
Boat Name: The Krusty Krab
Model/Year: 1980 C22
Hull No. 9223
Hailing Port: Kettle Falls Wa |
04/01/2008 10:51 PM Pacific Time
Howard, Thanks for your post as it was very helpful. My boat doesn't have any cracking around the keel tub. The very thin layer of fiberglass that was applied between the floor pan and the hull, inside both lockers, next to the keel tub was cracked and broken from the center isle step-up at the potty back to the dinette. There was also some sagging at the tabernacle.
Here is what I am doing for a correction. Please stop me if there is something you don't agree with. Also it needs to be said that this boat appears to have been sailed and raced quite hard in the past and probably was way over stressed both with rigging tension and mast bend. I sail quite aggressively myself but do it with with a well set up rig.
I have built a frame work of 3/4 and 1 inch steel box tubing and steel flat stock. It starts with steel flat stock 2" by 1/4" that runs full length of the compression post on both sides that is thru bolted to the post and lower tub. There is a box tube that runs from the center chainplate/shroud below the deck, diagonally downwards to the bottom of the comp post plate. There is another box tube that rises up vertically from this down tube, passes upward next to the windows and supports a steel box tube that crosses the cabin roof completely and supports the tabernacle. The comp post plate also supports the cabin cross tube next to the post. This entire structure is also bolted to the bulkheads on both sides.
The strange part of this mess of steel spagetti is that you can still get to the potty without additional trouble.
The frame supports the tabernacle, holds the shrouds from flexing and counters the forces trying to shove the mast down through the boat bottom.
To stop the floor pan and hull from flexing in different directions at the same time I was thinking of installing the 2x4 wood back above the keel tub and inserting a piece of 5/8 plywood over the hull just in front of the keel tub. This plywood is 6 inches wide and shaped into a shallow vee. It will span 16 inches on each side of the centerline and be glassed to the hull. I then was planning on filling as much of the area between the hull and floor pan as possible with foam from the comp post back to the dinette. Then I will fiberglass the floor pan to the hull in both lockers next to the keel tub.
That pretty much covers my thoughts on stopping the flexing. There is no way I would sell the boat to anyone after finding the extent of this problem. We have painted the entire boat, she has new sails and otherwise is a very nice ride. If you have any pictures of your repair I would love to see them. If not then just your knowledge fills many of my brains voids.
Thanks, Ray Bowles |
Al Gearing
Burleson, Texas
Boat Name: Torch of Freedom
Model/Year: C-22 '76
Hull No. 6448
Hailing Port: Arlington YC |
04/02/2008 6:32 AM Pacific Time
Ray, it seems like a lot of trouble that you are going through. On 501 I found after doing some deck repair and painting that when we restepped the mast, we measured from the highest point of the track going up the mast, to each side and set all four of the lowers to 24 on the Loos gauge . Then we tightened up the uppers to 30. The lowers went slack, indicating that the deck was sagging. Looking under the settee side and feeling around there was a post that was no long under the mast compression post, I could not move it, nor get to it from that side. So I drilled, with a 4" hole saw, on the aisle side, from there I fitted a wedge shaped block to fill up the space, saturated it with epoxy, (Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique or WEST systems) and put in place. Replacing the 4" piece of finished fiber glass was easy for a good looking finish. The compression problem was solved.
For what it 's worth,
Al Ge |
Howard Friedman
Pisgah Forest, NC
Boat Name: Forspacious Seas
Model/Year: Wing - 1989
Hull No. 14907
Hailing Port: Lake Keowee-Seneca, SC |
04/02/2008 7:09 AM Pacific Time
I agree with Al and I think we are talking about the same support block, but I was able to replace it from inside the seat. It would, however be a lot less trouble to do it from the outside if you don't mind seeing the repair cosmetically. That piece of 2x4 junk wood that they glassed in there is all that is transferring the compression load from the mast to the keel but it works if in place and not rotted out. Replacing it with a stronger support and better glass work should be sufficient. I would also check around the leading edge of the keel well for any stress cracks or soft spots in the glass around the bottom edge. Maybe the next time you haul or bottom paint. |
Ray Bowles
Boat Name: The Krusty Krab
Model/Year: 1980 C22
Hull No. 9223
Hailing Port: Kettle Falls Wa |
04/02/2008 9:26 PM Pacific Time
Howard and Al. Thank you to both. You have walked me right into the problem and repair. I can see where the block was before it fell out. After scrubbing out all the litter and sand in the area in front of the keel and down the sides it is free of any cracking or other damage. Now that I understand what happened and why I can greatly reduce the structure I was going to built. I will replace the wood and add additional support for the compression post and glass it all in place. I am going to leave the upper shroud to lower compression post stiffener and the outer tabernacle brace to strengthen that outer sag as we are on that part of the cabin top quite often.
Now that our snow is about gone it is time to play so I need to finish this up quickly.
Again, THANKS! If you would care to see photos of the finishened repair we can link up by E-mail.
Ray |
Howard Friedman
Pisgah Forest, NC
Boat Name: Forspacious Seas
Model/Year: Wing - 1989
Hull No. 14907
Hailing Port: Lake Keowee-Seneca, SC |
04/03/2008 8:11 AM Pacific Time
Glad you were successful. It's amazing how poorly that area was constructed. I guess they left enough of a void for your block to just fall out of place. I actually talked to Frank Butler(designer and CEO of Catalina Yachts) about my problem back in '77 and he did not give me any kind of satisfactory answer or direct me to the problem. I had to dig it out and learn the hard way. I wish we had this post back then. In my case, the compression post stayed in place but the glass joint attaching the well to the bulkhead cracked along the posts length,allowing the keel well to move sideways back and forth and creating stress cracks in the hull. |
Peter
South Daytona, Florida
Boat Name: (Working On A Name)
Model/Year: C-22, 1974
Hull No. 2679
Hailing Port: South Daytona, Florida |
04/03/2008 10:39 AM Pacific Time
Howard, I appreciate this last post of yours. I've only recently thought about this - that the "keel well" could move side to side. It makes since that it could. On my 1976 the compression post does nothing more than to transfer the forces to the hull, and is not glassed to the "keel well" in any significance way. What I do have is a triangular piece of 1/2 inch plywood (about 12" x 12" x ? ) encased and glassed to the keel well just forward of the keel lock bolt to prevent side-to-side movement. I just looked at a picture of a 1975 with the same feature.
Peter
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Ray Bowles
Boat Name: The Krusty Krab
Model/Year: 1980 C22
Hull No. 9223
Hailing Port: Kettle Falls Wa |
04/03/2008 8:51 PM Pacific Time
This is Ray again. My 1980 had the same triangular brace glassed to the keel housing. The keel well had no connection to the compression post. What was surprising was that the cavity above the keel and behind the comp post had a cement like material randomly applied in the forward end. This material interfered so much that there was no way any type of wood bracing could have been installed to aid in supporting the comp post. There is a tapered wood block slightly smaller than the compression post that run vertically down from the post to the bottom of the floor pan liner. This offers no support to the compression post as it just sinks toward the hull pan along with the floor. Without a connection from the bottom of the comp post structure to the keel tub there is no support.
I'm having a hard time believing there was ever was any block in my boat. If there was it was way smaller than a 2x4 and was never closer than 1 1/2 ' from the rear edge of the post.
My boat will probably ride like a train on a rail without springs as the whole assembly is now fused into one fiberglassed/epoxied unit.
Thanks guys for all the help.
Ray |
Howard Friedman
Pisgah Forest, NC
Boat Name: Forspacious Seas
Model/Year: Wing - 1989
Hull No. 14907
Hailing Port: Lake Keowee-Seneca, SC |
04/04/2008 1:33 PM Pacific Time
Peter- that's exactly how they constructed it but the compression post was just held in place by fill. Its only function was to transfer downward compression. The triangular support was put in to keep the wells side to side motion from working against the floor. It could not do the whole job however, so the well was attached to the seat bulkhead with a glass fill resin. This also helped to keep the comp. post from moving. In my case, however, it wasn't strong enough. It should have been laid up with glass cloth for strength. The crack was there when I bought the boat but I was too green to notice. I believe that the PO did not use the lock down screw and Biscayne Bay has a lot of wave slap at times. |
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
08/27/2010 7:12 PM Pacific Time
awesone! I will let u all know what I do with my same problem. you make me happy to tackle this prob! |
Peter Kirchner
DALTON
Boat Name: FurtherMoor
Model/Year: 387 2006
Hull No. 98
Hailing Port: New London, CT |
08/27/2010 7:12 PM Pacific Time
awesone! I will let u all know what I do with my same problem. you make me happy to tackle this prob! |
Howard Friedman
Pisgah Forest, NC
Boat Name: Forspacious Seas
Model/Year: Wing - 1989
Hull No. 14907
Hailing Port: Lake Keowee-Seneca, SC |
08/28/2010 7:11 AM Pacific Time
James-Rethinking this old post, I would do a few things differently. First I would epoxy the wood post to totally waterproof it before installing. Second I would clean out all the old fill down to the glass and ly some cloth and epoxy under the block before setting it in. This would help to seal any stress cracks that might have already formed. Make sure the wood post is positioned correctly and wedged in place using a thick epoxy putty made of chopped glass and resin. Then bond the whole thing together with laid up glass and epoxy, fastening the keel well to the bulkhead so it's all one piece. Add another triangular support for good measure, I don't think the one was enough. Wear a good respirator with canisters made for epoxy work as your head will be in an enclosed space with all the fumes. If you don't mind the appearance of the patch, it would be a lot easier to work from the outside of the seat than inside the hatch. |
