Tim Florek
Neenah, Wisconsin
Boat Name: Love n Luck
Model/Year: C22 1981
Hull No. 10301
Hailing Port: Neenah |
 09/29/2004 11:11 AM Pacific Time
I have an opportunity to replace my 1.5hp Nissan motor with a two-stroke 15hp Mariner at no cost. I sail on a lake that when rough can beat out my current motor. I am also interested in some Lake Michigan tours since I am near the big pond.
My question is first can the C22 motor mount handle that size motor and secondly is this too much motor. I remember Skip having a 25hp I believe but I wanted some other opinions.
Thanks for the responses
Tim Florek
Love -n- Luck #10301
Neenah, WIsconsin |
Joe McElroy
Snoqualmie, Washington
Boat Name: Teasel
Model/Year: 1979 Swing Keel
Hull No. 9014
Hailing Port: |
09/29/2004 12:20 PM Pacific Time
Tim,
I suspect most people on this forum will tell you that is way too much motor. They seem to be mostly from areas where you can sail almost all of the time. Around here, you're lucky to sail half of the time, and a good quiet, relaxed motor is important. The weight of your Mariner 15 looks like 77 pounds, which is almost identical to the Honda 7-1/2 that many people are using, as are we. I think the weight is a little much, both for carrying and for trim of the boat, but many people seem to be at least casually racing with this much on the stern. The present specs for the Mariner say the displacement is the same on the 10 and 15 HP models http://www.mercurymarine.com/mariner_15. This is often the case.
Given the price, try it out, it isn't that big a difference. |
Chris Hadden
Newfane, Vermont, USA
Boat Name: no name
Model/Year: 1974 Catalina 22
Hull No. 3439
Hailing Port: Vermont |
09/29/2004 12:24 PM Pacific Time
At that price I would definatly try it. It sounds no heavier then the 9.9 I have used on small sailboats. I would just make sure the engine bracket is rated for the weight and is properly backed to distribute the weight. |
Vic
Indianapolis, Indiana
Boat Name: Summer Zamboni
Model/Year: 1985?
Hull No. 13100
Hailing Port: Geist Marina, Indianapolis |
09/29/2004 1:38 PM Pacific Time
Tim-- I would definitely upgrade. I have a 9.9 and find myself using it often. I like to take the boat out at dusk. On the lake I sail on, the winds invariably die at sunset. Its nice to have a decintly powered motor to push the boat along when I'm opperating under power. I might not wish to upgrade from the 9.9 to a 15 hp motor, but I definitely would from a 1.5 hp motor.
Vic |
David Devine
Bradford, MA
Boat Name: Advent
Model/Year: 1976
Hull No. 5812
Hailing Port: Chatham, MA |
09/30/2004 6:32 AM Pacific Time
Tim - I bought my boat last fall, which had a 15HP Honda 4-stroke - I agree that it is overpowered for this size boat, but I really enjoyed it last weekend going dead against a 25 knot wind and tide as we made our way back up the channel into Pleasant Bay. Too much weight, but I sure love those ponies when you need 'em. |
Bob Vick
Caldwell, TX
Boat Name: Over Keel
Model/Year: <1985
Hull No. 13059
Hailing Port: Lake Somerville |
09/30/2004 7:15 AM Pacific Time
I have a 59 pound 9.9 hp on my boat. The C-22 is designed for 40 - 45 pounds of motor. My motor is one year old with electric & alternator if someone wants it.
The heavy motor causes the boat to sit back too far allowing the boat to sideslip when sailing to the mark. The C-22 sails best nose down. The best racers put everything forward including the table to get better pointing out of the boat.
Even if not racing sailing is not fun if not pointing. If 1.5 hp were legal for racing, I would have one. I bought 9.9 for the battery charging aspect. My flexible solar charger charges at the same rate as the motor with no weight added to the boat, so no gain except at night.
20 or 30 pounds extra on a boat stern like on a see-saw has an effect on the boat, of much more than just the added weight more pulling the stern down & the bow up. If you are a big man with a big motor I think you could actually effect the gravitational balance of the keel eliminating the 23 degree sweep to 15 or neutral thus allowing the keel to free float rather than sit in the trunk as designed.
I know that statement is a can of worms. However if one takes the keel & measures from the pin forward then eliminates that same volume aft of the pin – (equal balance) – there is not that much of the keel extending beyond that neutral area at the designed 23 degree sweep off of 90 degrees. Thus, only 100 – 200 pound of that 550-pound keel are holding it in place at optimal balance. Have you ever wondered why they put all of that curved mass bulk in that area forward of the pin, it is not for loading. As we add weight to any area aft, the keels pivot point we are neutralizing the natural placement & weight of the keels position. I do not think this would keep a keel from finding the trunk unless something was in the way restricting the swing. On the plus side the aft heavy boat would be more inclined to allow the keel to bounce up if in that more neutral position. On the negative side, all of the weight is more reliant on those 4 - 5/16th inch bolts holding the hangers with a straight down pull rather than a slight push toward the bow.
I ran aground one day sailing with my 5 year old; she was able to crank up the keel herself. Say 10 pound of force with an X? x ~8 mechanical advantage or 80 pounds of total lift. Thus be weary of weighting the stern.
Bob Vick
Caldwell, TX
C 22 #13059
Over Keel
|
Marie Musolino
Nags Head, NC
Boat Name: Reality Check
Model/Year: Catalina 22 / 1977/Swing Keel
Hull No. 6869
Hailing Port: Nags Head NC |
09/30/2004 7:36 AM Pacific Time
The boat I am considering has a 4.0 hp outboard. I found another boat for sale with a 9.9 hp. It had me wondering if the 4.0 was enough and perhaps I should be considering the boat with the larger engine even though I am in NC and the boat with the smaller engine is in VA and the boat with the larger engine & trailer is in FL and the logistics would present a big problem. |
Joe McElroy
Snoqualmie, Washington
Boat Name: Teasel
Model/Year: 1979 Swing Keel
Hull No. 9014
Hailing Port: |
09/30/2004 8:36 AM Pacific Time
Bob,
I think the effect on the keel balance is extremely minimal. A rough calculation shows that a 3 inch squat effects the fore and aft trim by 1.4 degrees (assuming 10 feet to center of buoyancy). I can't believe that 20 pounds affects the trim by more than an inch (somebody sitting in their boat, check it out!), which is less than ½ degree. Change of rake on the mast and transom dragging in the water are certainly bigger issues.
Marie,
Personally, I wouldn't go too far out of my way for a motor. A 4 horse may be fine for most of what you do (it depends a lot on the particular motor and propeller). If you change your mind, there are used ones all over. We bought our boat with a 1997 Honda 8. It weighed quite a bit more than the 1975 Honda 7-1/2 we already owned, didn't start a bit better, and was still depreciating, so we sold it.
I should point out here that older outboards are rated by powerhead HP, not HP at the propeller like the newer ones are, so our 7-1/2 is more like 6 HP. I can't remember when this rating change occurred (maybe 1980-85?). I do occasionally miss the more relaxed power of the 8: the boat responds quite a bit quicker with the bigger engine. We only trailer our boat, so carrying that motor is a big deal. I couldn’t see any improvement in pointing ability with the 20 pound weight loss.
Joe
|
Paul Moore
Doylestown, PA
Boat Name:
Model/Year:
Hull No.
Hailing Port: |
09/30/2004 2:52 PM Pacific Time
TO Tim
and Marie (I saw your post about buying a boat and this relates)
I strongly suggest that you look at www.nada.com they have book values for used boats and outboards.
I also looked up my 1984 C22 prior to purchasing and it made me feel much better - I bough mine on E-bay.
A C22 should be a great boat of NagsHead.
|
Marie Musolino
Nags Head, NC
Boat Name: Reality Check
Model/Year: Catalina 22 / 1977/Swing Keel
Hull No. 6869
Hailing Port: Nags Head NC |
09/30/2004 3:18 PM Pacific Time
Hello Paul - I used to live in Allentown, Pa. with all that rain you are probably using your C-22 to go back to work. Thanks for the tip. Problem is that the C-22 with the bigger Outboard is in Florida. I would one of those purchases from a picture. I am feeling pretty comfortable with the conversations I've had with the VA boat owner. His boat has been well maintained - for example - teak just refinished, scrubbed and painted bottom every year, new portapotti, new battery, standing rigging replaced in 96, running rigging replaced last year, VHF Radio, the 4.0 outboard is from 1988 but completely overhauled 2 yrs ago. The FL boat was used at a sailing school - no amenites other than the beefier engine and the trailer. I spoke with a trailer shop and I could get a modified trailer for $400 - $600. So even with the purchase of the trailer, my cost is still below the what the guy in FL wants and a pretty good amount below the NADA. |
Artur Piotrowski
Burlington, Ct
Boat Name: Spirit
Model/Year: C22 1986
Hull No. 13485
Hailing Port: Bantam, Ct |
09/30/2004 7:51 PM Pacific Time
I'm surprised you guys rely so heavily on NADA values.
Their numbers stay put through the seasons and are being adjusted only for depreciation when the real price of a boat of C22 type will fluctuate significantly (at least here in NE) between the spring and fall. I know from my experience that the difference could be 25% and more. Anyway, $2500 sounds like a good deal, not much room for more depreciation. Just my three cents.
"Spirit" #13485 |
Chip Ford
Marblehead, MA
Boat Name: Chip Ahoy
Model/Year: 1974-Swing Keel
Hull No. CTY032820374
Hailing Port: Marblehead, Mass. |
10/01/2004 3:13 AM Pacific Time
To throw my two cents worth into this conversation:
David, I was glad to have my 9.9 hp Tohatsu the evening I spent three hours making good three miles at maybe half a knot with the motor winding out against a wicked outgoing current going up the Merrimack River on my cruise up the coast of Maine in August. I'd have loved something bigger on the back on Chip Ahoy that night as the boat barely crept past channel markers, and wouldn't have made it with anything smaller! The size of the motor depends on how one intends to use the boat.
( See: http://www.chipford.com/maine_cruise.htm
Thursday, August 5, 2004; 0735 - Newburyport, MA on the Merrimack River)
Artur, I bought Chip Ahoy two years ago (with a bad motor and a trailer in not much better shape) for $2,500. The boat was in great shape but it was your most basic C-22 with zero amenities. Since then, I've sunk over $17,000 into it -- and obviously intend to keep it for a while. I had it surveyed this summer for insurance purposes prior to departing on my month's cruise up the coast of Maine. "Present Value" is $9,800 and "Replacement Value" is $27,000. It's insured for $9,800 but I'd be lucky to sell it for $5,000 were I to decide to, and I'm looking for another trailer!
( See: http://www.chipford.com/survey.pdf )
Chip Ford --
Marblehead, Mass.
1974 C22 Swing Keel #3282 - "Chip Ahoy"
Chip Ahoy website: www.chipford.com
|
Marie Musolino
Nags Head, NC
Boat Name: Reality Check
Model/Year: Catalina 22 / 1977/Swing Keel
Hull No. 6869
Hailing Port: Nags Head NC |
10/01/2004 5:53 AM Pacific Time
I can't speak for Paul, but I'm really not putting all that emphasis on the NADA value. 2500 seems to be the average asking price for the 1977 C-22. There are 2 main criteria for me. Ist which boat is has been better maintained and second, which is easier for me to get to. Obviously, its hard to personally compare the boat in VA with theboat in FL. what perked my attention to the FL boat was the trailer. My son is in FL, within 30 mi, that is why I was remotely considering it. If the VA boat doesn't mesh with the owners decription, then I will have my son look at the one in FL. You guys know how it is - we al want the best deal. |
Marie Musolino
Nags Head, NC
Boat Name: Reality Check
Model/Year: Catalina 22 / 1977/Swing Keel
Hull No. 6869
Hailing Port: Nags Head NC |
10/01/2004 5:55 AM Pacific Time
Also, I don't know how the orginal post about motor size got so off the subject - sorry Tim. |
Bob Vick
Caldwell, TX
Boat Name: Over Keel
Model/Year: <1985
Hull No. 13059
Hailing Port: Lake Somerville |
10/01/2004 8:25 PM Pacific Time
Joe McElroy,
Well taken comments. 20 extra motor is nothing when the Captain is 260 over keel. The combined effects of a few more pounds here & there was my real point.
Cheers,
Bob |
